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You're Not Going To Like This Lot Then...
Can Arsenal and United fans find somewhere else to have their "My Dad is bigger than your Dad" argument, It really is the most boring series of mails ever written. I know we are short of real news, but this is getting tedious in the extreme.
Enrique, Essex
Underrated
Surely John Cook has seriously understated the extent of Arsene's achievements since 1997?
What about his role in bringing the Olympics to London? And dramatically reducing global child poverty?
And helping to maintain peace in Europe?
Andy (sarcasm rules) C, Chelsea, Oxon
A Succinct Riposte
John Cook's a knob-end, isn't he?
Monkey Steve
Some Not So Succinct Ripostes
I think I am in a state of shock- this is the first time I have ever read the mailbox and only made it through the first letter! John Cook- are you an idiot or just very very stupid.
Where to start:
"Arsene Wenger has changed English football completely.........English football was considered a joke amongst our European cousins."
Liverpool 4 times, Forest 2 times United, Villa once each for Euro champions not to mention other UEFA cup wins- I bet the Europeans were pissing themselves at that!
"Before Wenger, there was never any chance of any English-based player ever being consider the best in the world even by people in England, let alone anywhere else"
George Best, Denis Law, Bobby Charlton, Kevin Keegan, Kenny Dalglish, Ian Rush, Arnold Muhren, Ossie Ardiles, Ryan Giggs, Eric Cantona John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, Gazza, Lineker ( i am sure we could all continue this list). I appreciate that they are maybe not the best players in the world ever (apart from Georgie obviously) but they were all kind of tasty and funnily enough most played for foreign teams at some point- presumably as part some form of European joke!
"Arsene Wenger opened the world market up to English teams, introducing the likes of Vieira,.......instead of the second rate Scandinavians that previously filled our teams"
See above- although Gazza could be mental enough to be a Viking.
This could go on a while so hopefully other people will deal with the rest of your lunacy.
Chris (hoping John Cook is 5 and not just special needs) Belfast
PS- I happen to think Wenger is really good- just not the saviour of English football
...Tottenham fan thinks John Cook the Gooner in the morning mailbox is an idiot, shock horror!
Even as a Spurs fan, I have great respect for AW's achievements, and I know many Arsenal fans who appreciate that without him they wouldn't have enjoyed the pre-eminence over us that they have had in recent years, but get a grip man. It wasn't Wenger who transformed English football or who "opened the world market up to English teams", but the advent of satellite television, and Sky in particular. The influx of players from overseas to English football is as a result of the rising wages paid by English teams, not due to the fact that Alex Ferguson et al didn't know they played football East of Dover. I was no great fan of Wimbledon, but they were hardly any worse than Sunderland of a couple of years ago, or Derby last season.
By the way, probably from the view he holds I suspect John Cook is unaware of players like Osvaldo Ardiles, Arnold Muhren, Frans Thiessen all of whom came to England in the Seventies and Eighties, and who by any measure of football were truly class players. If my memory serves me correctly since the arrival of AW, English clubs have won no more than three or four European trophies, none by Arsenal I'm pleased to say, whereas throughout the Seventies and Eighties English clubs were considered to be a dominant force, rather than the joke that John contends they were.
English based footballers weren't that successful when they went abroad, usually culturally rather than in a football sense. But the fact is continental teams were still prepared to give English based players a try, with the likes of Charles, Greaves, Lineker, Ince, and Keegan. Must mention three others that spring to mind, Platt to Sampdoria, Woodcock to Cologne and Brady to Milan, surprise surprise John, they were Arsenal players, and they all managed it before AW arrived.
The rest of his letter is not even worth a response. To conclude. despite what "John (if you don't believe me Sky Sport is showing Premier League Years daily!)" Cook says, football didn't begin with Sky in 1992, or with the arrival of AW at Arsenal.
Jim French (Spurs since '59) Herts
...After reading John Cook's e-mail how rubbish football was before Arsene came to our shores I felt I had to make a response. I really rate Wenger and agree he has done a lot of good for English football, but to talk about him like he alone has "opened the world market up to English teams" is ridiculous. You talk like their was no foreigners other than Scandinavians before Wenger. Ossie Ardiles anyone? Jurgen Klismann? Eric Cantona? Gianluca Vialli? When Gullit and then Vialli took over at Chelsea they bought a lot of foreign talent into English football. So by your logic was it Vialli/Gullit who actually "opened the world market up to English teams"?
As I said before no disrepect to Mr Wenger, as he has done great things, but to talk like nobody had even thought of signing foreign players before 1996 is utter balls.
Anthony (disgruntled by the mass amnesia that seems to be common in North London.)
...Every club has deluded fans like these two for sure but just going highlight two points:
According to John Cook: "Arsene Wenger opened the world market up to English teams, introducing the likes of Vieira, Anelka, Henry into his teams and giving the likes of Ferguson the impetus to buy players like Stam, Van Nistlerooy, and Ronaldo".
I do believe that Kanchelskis and Schemichel were at United before Wenger performed said miracle. Cantona was also at Leeds in the early 90's. Anelka and Vieira arrived around 1996. If you were to continue with such a ridiculous argument, then once could contend that Ruud Gullit who signed Zola and other continental players at the time opened up the world market to English teams in a similar fashion.
According to William O'Docherty: "Wenger has spotted and developed Ashley Cole, Kolo Toure, Patrick Vieira, Mathieu Flamini, Cesc Fabregas, Robin van Persie and Thierry Henry. Can you possibly tell me that Ferguson can compare with that?".
This is a ridiculous argument. So unearthing Fabregas at Barcelona is completely different from unearthing Ronaldo at Sporting? So spotting Patrick Vieira at the secluded AC Milan is completely different from spotting Jaap Stam at PSV? So developing Robin van Persie (it could be argued hasn't developed so much) from the player he was at the relatively unknown Feyenoord is different from developing Rooney (it could be argued hasn't developed so much)?
Good day to all,
Dean Kerr.
Arf
According to John (if you don't believe me Sky Sport is showing Premier League Years daily!) Cook:
"In my biased opinion, without Wenger, there would be no multi-billion pound TV deals, no Henry, no Ronaldo, no Abramovich, no Mourinho, no Benitez, no Torres, no Scolari"
Where do I sign up?
Martin, Teesside
A 'Neutral' Perspective
I would like to add a neutral perspective to this Fergie / Wenger debate.
I don't particularly like either of them, but respect what they have achieved They are both great managers who like their teams to play entertaining football They are good, but not infallible, in transfer dealings Manchester United were a huge club with a great history before Ferguson Arsenal were a huge club with a great history before Wenger Football existed before these two joined their respective clubs Football will continue to exist after they have both left their respective clubs - no honestly, it will They have simply improved things at a particular point in time - well done
My only criticism of Wenger (in this email) is the conflicting strategy of his training/diet/lifestyle methods at Arsenal and his policy on contracts for 30+ year old players. What is the point of taking great lengths to prolong the careers of your players if you don't offer them the security of long term contracts and therefore reap the benefits of their enhanced physical condition?
One final question (not to Manyoo or Gooners), who would you prefer to have a drink and a chat with? My beer (or red wine) would be on Fergie. I reckon he can hold an interesting conversation on far more things than football, and can probably have a laugh as well....Wenger seems obsessed.
Andy G, Cheshire Chelsea - August, day 5, and still raining in Manchester
What Counts As Development?
Does signing a 16 - 17 year old and then "developing" them into good players mean they count as products of a clubs youth system? In my opinion, no. A product of the youth system is someone who has been with the club from around the age of 10-12, something like that, who was spotted as having potential and then developed gradually as he aged. In other words he wasn't signed, the only club he was at was a local kids team, he didn't cost the club any money in "compensation"
A 16 - 17 year old is approaching the age where a decent coach will be 80-90% certain of whether or not the kid will "make it" - and in some cases they might be on the verge of breaking into the first team - whereas there are a lot more factors that need to be taken into account when the kid is only 10-12.
As an example, if Dos Santos turns (17) out to be a world beater at Spurs, could they claim it is down to their own youth system? I have heard Jack Wilshere at Arsenal is supposed to be a cracking player, but if (and this is obviously hypothetical) United or Chelsea signed him now and then he became a great player, would United or Chelsea get the credit for their youth policy? In both examples the answer would be no, and rightly so. So why should Arsenal get credit for their youth system for players like Fabregas, Flamini, RVP, Toure, Viera and Henry (wasn't Arsenal his third club?) when they were all signed from another club?
I'm not knocking Wenger's ability to spot talented youngish players - frankly he is bloody brilliant at it - but to say he developed them is stretching it a bit far. Helped develop them, sure that is fair, but they would have made it had they been poached by United, Chelsea, Liverpool or whoever.
N J
A Grey Year
If history is to go by then it WILL be Liverpool's year as the last time they won the league they had a grey away kit!
There you go I've said it.....its definetley Liverpools year this year ! (Oh no what have I done).
Neil Walters LFC
The Irish Do Have A Sense Of Humour
Hey Eoghan Carroll, Co.Meath, Ireland would you ever give it a rest. Unlike you the rest of us here in Ireland have a sense of humor. Did we all not spend summers in England taking their money and messing with their women when we were younger? Oh happy days! It was a JOKE Let that be the end of it.
Derek (Galway and Ireland) with a sense of houmer and a fondness of English women
...Eoghan Carroll from Inbreedin Co Meath...... Just because some oversensitive Mucksavages like you have no sense of humour doesnt mean the rest of us normal Irish have to be so sensitive.................Even Kieran Burke realised that he was been a muppet and apologised and now we have you on here embarrassing us again by comparing the Potato famine to the Holocaust !!!! Really similar situations arent they. Your comparing the Potatoes to Nazis???? How can you compare a FAMINE to mass murder???? Are you a mentalist?? Do you think the potatoes invaded Ireland and then set up concentration camps?
I realise that over a million people died and a equal number displaced in the famine but to compare it to the Nazi's and the holocaust is just pathetic.
Anyway can you f*ck off our football website as this is for people WITH a sense of humour and your NOT representing the majority of sane Irish people who havent got a "chip" on their shoulder
Ray -(I hate Potatoes)- KILDARE not Dublin
...Eoghan Carroll, Co.Meath, Ireland (still banging on about the anti-Irish joke) - get over yourself. First of all I have never heard of Dubliners being described as 'scousers who can swim' - maybe this is a phrase invented & used only in the small backward, outsider-fearing village where you live in matrimony with your cousin. This may explain your paranoia & touchiness over any attempted slight on the Irish people. You are one of those people who looks for offence in everything & is delighted when they find it. You are an embarassment to your fellow Irishmen & should perhaps consider a move to the Falls road to join the other Irish people too insecure in themselves that they are permanently ready to be offended at the slightest thing.
Cian, Bray Wanderers, Dublin
Someone Who Actually Read The Article
Mark from London should read articles and quotes more closely before jumping into a tirade against F365's writers. Mark argues that there is a difference between Wenger's pinching Fabregas and Flamini when they were too young to have a legally binding contract and Barcelona talking in the press about Adebayor - one is legally allowed and the other is not. True, and were Nick arguing that Wenger should also be investigated for 'tapping up' then he'd have a point. But he isn't. Actual quotes from Wenger: "If you don't show respect to other clubs I think that footballis moving in the wrong way." Whether there's a legal difference or not, it is unarguable that Wenger showed no respect to Barcelona and Marseille in poaching Fabregas and Flamini at a young age from them. This is especially true as those clubs have done "the work and develop the players" (sic) leaving Arsenal to "just come in and offer them big wages". Ergo, Arsene Wenger is a hypocrite, and Nick Miller is correct.
Tim Colyer, London, Chelsea fan
Some Suggested Youngsters
Whilst loving the toss-up between Wenger and Ferguson, I just wanted to say that in response to; *Bren Sri, South London; * I'm looking forward to half the Arsenal reserves! I love the Carling cup for this reason, lets see we have;
1. Jack Wilshere - Been watching him for years and am so proud that he's in the first team, as someone else suggested, he's very Joe Cole, but I think will be much better technically due to 7yrs of being at Arsenal :)
2. Henri Lansbury - I call this dude the English Fabregas, I think he's chance might have been put back by Wilshere but he is very good!
3. Harvard Nordveit - Everything you want in a defender, I'm no fan of Senderos, not consistant enough, hopefully this Nordveit guy gets a good run in the CC and becomes our 3rd choice CB.
4. Fran Merida - Always liked this guy, problem now is; we have several playmakers and Fabregas is still young.
I chose to limit myself to 4 because we have a lot of decent English players coming through (Rhys Murphy, Randall, Freeman) and I can't include them all! I would now go on about how many playmakers we have, but I'm guessing it will go Fabregas, Rosicky, Ramsey, Nasri and then Wilshere (not bad for a 16yo!)
Chris (If you print this I'll watch a Spurs game....) May, London
...I'm going to assume this is the only letter you'll receive regarding Watford today, so in response to Bren Sri's 'Which Youngsters Do You Fancy?' email from this mornings mailbox, I'm going to put forward the name of Lewis Young.
I played with Lewis for a short period a few years ago when he played at left-back, but now he has moved towards a midfielder/forward role (similar to that of his brother Ashley at AV), I'm lead to believe that he is held in higher regard at Vicarage Road than Ashley ever was. He's looked good for the youth and reserve teams and hopefully he can make the step up this year. However, with the threat of administration looming over the club, I can't imagine it will be too long before a premiership club picks him up on the cheap.
Adam (Living the Dream) Franklin, Watford
...In response to Bren Sri, South London regarding young talent coming through across the premiership, I thought I would throw the highly anticipated youngsters coming through at the academy at Upton Park into the mix.
Freddie Sears- Burst onto the scene last season with a string of impressive sub appearances and plays very much in the mould of Craig Bellamy (but thankfully not the attitude!). He is extremely quick and has a great predator instinct. Will be back up to Ashton and Bellamy this season.
James Tomkins- Tall centre half who again like Sears got a run towards the end of last season due to all the injuries. A ball playing centre half, who will blossom alongside a leader like Upson, as opposed to a plank like Ferdinand.
Jack Collison- Young Welsh midfielder who is believed to be a dogged tackler and fine passer, very much like our last academy product, Mark Noble. Already a full international and has bags of potential to force his way past the back up midfielders like Mullins and Bowyer to challenge Parker and Noble for a first team spot.
Joe Widdowson- attacking young left back with good ability to support the winger and put some decent crosses in. Word is he is the reason why we haven't invested in a back up left back for McCartney.
The best thing about this crop as well is three of them are English! Bet they get the injury curse like the rest of the squad though!
Mike (Cant believe Bellamy is injured again) WHUFC, Essex
We've Checked And She's 15, So Yes It Is Too Young
In answer to your question "Which youngsters do you fancy?"
I say Miley Cyrus. (is that too young?)
Arron ( I didn't read the mail its self, looked rather long, so I may have misinterpreted the question) Kildare
What Are The Reserves For?
I just read in F365's Youngsters To Watch feature that Freddie Sears has scored 25 goals in 24 reserve games. And I wasn't even under the impression he was all that good. Just how many goals get scored in these games? I've never had the pleasure of watching one (too busy sorry sorry, an ex-pat now but no excuse. I'm obviously not a real fan etc etc) but I always seem to read about young chaps like Vela and Rooney or James Vaughan scoring 78 goals each in a reserve season and such like. Do all these games end in 11-9 scorelines? If so, where are the good defenders coming from? Certainly not the reserve teams it would seem!
David (they must be coming from France and Eastern Europe I suppose) Keddie, Leeds Utd and Melbourne Victory supporter
Keep On Laughing
I would like to thank F365 mailbox for keeping me entertained throughout the off season. Seriously, reading gems like "...as good a player as Ronaldo is, I'd have Walcott any day of the week..." at the begining of the day is absoultely priceless. Please do keep the good work up and I look forward to more mailboxes once the season begins.
Sagar
The Mother Tongue
Enrique ("I'm foreign so I know") - just guessing here, but I suspect that your spoken English is far more understandable than Kenny Dalglish's.
Paul F, LFC
