A Manchester United and Liverpool Mailbox special

Matt Stead

Don’t forget to read our other morning Mailbox for thoughts on Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City, Spurs and much more. Then send your thoughts to theeditor@football365.com.

 

Facts
Six damning, unarguable facts, offered without comment.

Man Utd have won one league game in the last two months (against bottom of the table Swansea).

Man Utd have scored two more league goals than bottom of the table Swansea.

Man Utd have scored 5 LESS goals than a Crystal Palace team who (until yesterday) had lost their last six league games.

Man Utd have the same goal difference as a WBA team managed by Tony Pulis.

Man Utd are 12 points ahead of bottom of the table Swansea, and 13 points behind top of the table Chelsea.

Man Utd have the highest paid football squad on earth, bar none.
Naz, Gooner

 

Oh, Marouane
Marouane f*cking Fellaini. In my biased opinion, Everton deserved absolutely nothing from that game and Fellaini handed them the point on a silver platter. As Gary Neville said of the challenge in commentary, it was absolute garbage, which is an appropriate description of the player himself. Yet again, we played well and were – by a distance – the better team, and end up coming away with a draw. Granted we could, no, should have finished off the match while we were in front, but up until Fellaini came on, we were on track for a thoroughly deserved three points.

That simply has to be his last “contribution” to the United cause. I want him sold in January, hell, I’d be delighted to see him leave on a free transfer right now – pay off his contract if need be, he’s that useless. He was never really good enough for United even at his peak, but now it is just like a bad joke. What makes it worse is the stupid expression on that moron’s face upon giving away the penalty. Don’t protest your innocence like you don’t know for sure that you are at fault, get that stupid smirk off your face like you’ve been hard done to; hang your damn head in shame because you know – or at least should – that your idiocy has cost us the game.

While we’re at it, get rid of Rojo as well. That challenge on Gueye was despicable and should have received the full punishment possible. That he’s gotten away with that, and will do so retrospectively because the referee saw it during the game, is an embarrassment. Almost as bad was Barry’s unpunished challenge on Ibrahimovic in the first half; he should have been yellow-carded for that one, there can be absolutely no doubt.

I’m still not overly worried by the way things are going, because we are still playing well even though we’re not getting the results we should be. If we can stop making stupid mistakes – like playing Fellaini – then we absolutely will start winning games. Having said that, the top four is probably already out of reach now. The title was never a possibility this season, but top four should have been and a nine point gap to fourth place with five very good teams in front of us makes it extremely difficult to make up the ground – especially if we keep dropping points like we did today. We still have a chance in the domestic cups and the Europa league which, in my opinion, we should be prioritising at this point, seeing as it’s our best chance of qualifying for the Champions League. Not that that would be easy, mind you.
Ted, Manchester

 

Bringing Fellaini on yesterday was the worst decision I have seen in the post Ferguson years, and that includes the decision to buy him in the first place.

It was so obvious what was about to happen that it had me swearing loudly and then gently weeping in frustration.

Come on Jose its time to step up, take this team by the scruff of the neck and start delivering.
Plato – MUFC

 

If you send Fellaini on at any point during the game, you deserve that. You so f****** deserve that. Negative manager meets brainless/talentless player,and this is exactly what you get.

Yes United have been far far better attacking wise, but all of it is despite Jose being there. Just like how his Real team racked up record points/goals that one season, it’s all down to the flair players now in the team. There is no way, they should be so far behind with the talent available and the league campaign has already been a disaster, considering the continued investment.

We are fast turning into a Cup team and there will be another win this season no doubt. Yes, we are doing a Liverpool and I hope we don’t continue doing it for the next two decades.
Rahber (absolutely disgusted) India

 

Are supporters stupid? I have yet to meet a United fan who would have Fellaini in the United squad not a mind the team. It is quite obvious to anyone who has any basic knowledge of football that he is not good enough for United but Moyes, LVG and Mourinho seem to think he is. Are we missing something? I would like to put it out there, do supporters of other teams have a player they can’t understand how or why he gets in their team?
Ken, Cork, Ireland

 

Hopefully that’s the last we see of him for a very long time. Mourinho made a negative substitution and it monumentally backfired again. We should be going for the kill. Instead more dropped points. you can’t win titles when you are afraid to win. Different game, same story. Roll on whatevers next.
Oisin NZ

 

Who else saw the Mop(pet) cause that penalty and immediately thought of the phrase “you had one job”

Whoever his voodoo priest is (he can’t have compromising pictures of all three managers surely) what do we have to pay to make sure he never plays again i’m sure we would all gladly chip in.
Timi MUFC
(Fellani out since 2014)

 

JoMo
Man, the guy is losing it. He accuses a journo of not understanding football, yet it took him 85 minutes to work out that Everton were ‘playing everything direct’. To be fair, it maybe took that long to read something of the game that didn’t exist.

Oh and by the way, can we start calling him JoMo? No real reason, it just tickles me to imagine him flouncing around singing “don’t be fooled by the trophies that I’ve got, I’m still, I’m still making it all up”. Plus it’s just funny and I imagine it would really irritate him.
Ally, London

 

Nothing is more annoying than a coach claiming he deserves better than the result. For one two games maybe but with one win in nine, it is no longer tenable and outright disaster. Why wait for Christmas to fire Jose Mourinho? The season could still be salvaged with a more decent coach – not Giggs please – who would prefer to coach the team rather than one who tells us ‘luck’ is better than his tactics and team talks.
Osama

 

The ref word
The fact that michael oliver has not only been fast tracked into the Premier League but also seems to be being fast tracked to be a EUFA/FIFA level ref is frankly baffling and terrifying, unless you remember that the refs boss at the moment is mike riley.

He managed to get the two biggest decisions of the game wrong yesterday (Rojo should have gone. No other way to see that. The penalty never was, but then he’s pretty bad anyway) and let’s not forget this is a man who had no problem with joe hart nutting him yet was outraged when Di Maria put his hand on his shoulder.

The reason we won’t get video replays is because of inept officials like oliver. Continually showing them up week after week will just see them complaining about being second guessed. Some say “the ref’s job isn’t easy”. This is true. What helps is a level of competence.
Israel (I wonder if brian, LFC is laughing as hard this week?) MUFC since 1978

 

Can the FA drop Michael Oliver please?

First he misses the terrible tackle by Barry, which should’ve been yellow.
He misses Rojo’s challenge, a red.
He fails to give Barry a yellow for his deliberate handball, stopping a United counter attack.
He awarded that penalty, where Gueye left a leg out to catch Fellaini.
He booked Fellaini for protesting his innocence, yet Everton players got in his face in the first half but showed no yellow.

All in all, a referee that needs to do the Prem a favour and retire.
Ben, (Pogba’s selfishness is costing Utd) Cheltenhamshire

 

Capitulation
In the build up to this game, I found myself slightly anxious. I don’t know why, but I had a bad feeling. This was only increased when I saw Matip was absent. That solid back 5 was going up against a solid and direct attacking side in Bournemouth.

*And yet the first half eased my concerns. This was Liverpool at their best. Great running, excellent movement and an absolutely terrific finish by Origi, (honestly that was a goal any striker would be proud of). I thought to myself my fears are unfounded.

*And yet…

*Look it was a poor tackle by Milner, but what was Lovren doing? As much as he has improved, you always have a feeling something will go amiss. Now that Sakho is on the way out, and Klavan is just seen as back up, I think Klopp may dip into the transfer market. I’d be happy with turning the attentions to Southampton again!

*Since the international break, Firmino has looked a little bit off the pace. I’m not sure what has caused this. Although Mane scored, he is another that hasn’t looked at the pace he was at earlier in the season. Hopefully with Lallana back this will feed back into those two getting back to their level.

*Wijnaldum is an odd midfielder. Although he breaks up the play on occasion, he is consistently too slow on moving the ball forward and the second half saw him bypassed completely. Can, what a nice hit by the way, is ahead of him and I think Klopp knows it as well.

*I know you guys referenced Henderson vs Wilshere in the build up and I know Wilshere was on the winning side, but I still think Henderson is the more complete midfielder. His stats this season alone prove so and Wilshere in the first half was non-existent.

*Now on to Karius. It’s odd, because he actually made one or two decent stops, but the Fraser goal should’ve been stopped, and to spill the ball out in front of the goal for Ake’s goal was criminal. Does Klopp stick or twist? When your back-up is Simon Mignolet it’s a hard call. Dropping Karius would destroy his confidence. He still is young and undoubtedly will improve, but it will take a lot of soul searching this week to get up and ready for the inevitable crosses that will come for Big Andy and West Ham next Sunday.

*Credit to Bournemouth. They went at Liverpool in the second half and a lot of teams will take heart from this when playing Liverpool. They’re a likeable team and I think Eddie Howe will inevitably be linked with the next big job to come up.

*Its disappointing to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but I think it’s a wake up call to supporters, myself included who are thinking of a title challenge. Chelsea, Arsenal or City wouldn’t have lost that game. Top four was the aim and should be.

*Hopefully West Ham will still be hurting next week. Could use a good victory to pick up the confidence.

Regards,
Miguel Sanchez, LFC, Eire (Sanchez is a joy to watch)

 

That’s why Liverpool won’t win the league
That game perfectly highlighted for me Liverpool’s weaknesses this season, and why I don’t think we can win the title. A few weeks ago I had this nagging idea that without that constant threat of attack from Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, etc., opponents would get enough confidence to start really testing our defence. If our forwards could stay fresh and uninjured all season, then great, but that’s not realistic; especially with Klopp’s “heavy-metal” style. Basically, our attacking half was covering the inconsistencies in our defending half.

Queue today, without Coutinho and an in-form Lallana, we lacked that constant threat up top. While we still managed to score a few goals (I really like what Origi is doing), we weren’t intimidating enough to save our defence from pressure. And then it all went to s**t.

Wow, did we miss Matip today. Our last few clean-sheets I was starting to hope that maybe we had turned a corner defencively. I think today proved just how key Matip is to our defending success (and just how shaky we are without him). We gave up a two goal lead twice!! And not just to draw, to lose the game! Lucas and Lovren just totally imploded. Lovren is an able deputy when he’s alongside a stronger defender, but I don’t think he’s good enough to lead the back four.

I think Bournemouth just gave the blueprint on how to beat Liverpool. You won’t keep us out of your net, but if you throw enough forward, you may just outscore us. Credit to them, they showed some great mental resilience and a few fine displays of athleticism to get the job done.

But my gawd, that defence.
Curtis, Montreal (Really wishing we could clone Matip about now)

 

More thoughts
1. Firmino was a passenger today. Couldn’t get into the game, what he did had no affect on the outcome of the match. Missing Phil? Maybe. We can certainly forgive this one bad performance though, he’s been excellent all season.

2. What I can’t forgive is Wijlnaldum though. I genuinely don’t know what he brings to the team, he just tackles a bit and is a bit big. Can, Hendo and Lallana for the midfield 3, Wijnaldum should be nowhere near that side.

3. Fair play to Bournemouth, to come back from 3-1 is always an achievement. Can’t help but think we allowed them back into the game though; more of a killer instinct is needed not to allow teams to come back into it, the momentum changed by bringing on Ryan Fraser.

4. A word on Eddie Howe. He’ll take a lot of plaudits for the way Bournemouth played, and specifically with bringing on Fraser. But if he does,then surely he deserves criticism for not starting him in the first place? If Stanislas is never injured, do Bournemouth come back into that game?

5. Karius you’re a truly handsome man, but bar one performance this season I can’t see anything that makes me think he’s good enough for the first team yet.

6. Joel bloody Matip. In the space of half a season you’ve gone from Bosman to Boss Man. Another CB like that and I’d start to dream. Spend whatever money you need to Jurgen to bring him to the club,Van Dijk seems like the simplest solution for everyone right?

7. You can’t win every game, and you can’t legislate for 2 defenders deciding they’re going to act like prem quality strikers when the time it right. On another day, Boruc’s “save” from the corner goes in as an OG, or Origi’s spin and finish goes just under rather than just over. Learn from the mistakes and ensure they don’t happen again.
Sam, LFC (Bracing myself for the backlash of “If only my auntie had bollocks” replies in the comments) North Yorks

 

#KloppOut
Credit to Bournemouth, especially after the excellent Fraser came on. They worked hard, took advantage of Liverpool’s inability to deal with second balls and got their just rewards. It’s great to watch a less fancied team win a game through sheer endeavor and grit.

However, from a Liverpool fan’s perspective, some blame must be laid at Klopp’s feet. The tide turned after Fraser’s introduction. Milner and Henderson could not cope with his pace and directness. Surely a change to 4-2-3-1, with Can sitting alongside Henderson, would have stemmed the tide. Henderson was struggling as a lone number 6. In addition, bringing on Klavan to counter Afobe’s threat, even just to rescue a point, would have been prudent. Instead, Klopp brought on a rusty Lallana and watched helplessly as Bournemouth imposed themselves. Then again, hindsight is always 20/20 and, most importantly, us armchair fans know nothing about professional football management.

Alas, I hope that this loss is a good wake-up call for the team, especially ahead of the busy festive season. The sight of Mane limping off and the sudden absence of Matip is worrying. But it is encouraging that Liverpool remain only four points off the top and have scored the most goals thus far. It’s been bloody entertaining and long may it continue.
Dominic Neo, LFC, Singapore (wouldn’t be so positive if I hadn’t captained Alexis)

 

Liverpool needed that
Liverpool fan, obviously unhappy that our defense thought they’d phone in a performance the last 20 minutes. Fair play to Bournemouth, would’ve been easy to just go through the motions at 1-3, but they just kept on going, and got a deserved famous win.

Strangely content though, normally I’d be hopping mad after a shocker like last night, but I think we needed this sort of a result. There’s been too much talk of a title race (it’s f***ing December!) and looked like a few of our bunch had bought in what the papers had to say. Nothing like throwing a 2 goal lead away on the way to a loss to remind ourselves that the focus should be on the next match, and not on how the other ‘contenders’ fared.

Klopp’s post match presser fills me with hope. Gracious enough to admit that the result was deserved, and how we’ll be using it to better our efforts/focus. A far cry from Jose calling Everton a long ball team, being coy on that tackle from Rojo, and refusing to accept what was a pretty straightforward foul from Felliani. The issue with “us against the world” approach is that the team would then continue to do what they’re doing while expecting the results to improve on their own.

Here’s hoping they don’t!
Aviral (If you’re happy and you know it, Klopp your hands..no? *sigh*) Mumbai

 

Ah Liverpool, my old reliable friend, how I’ve missed you. What was most confusing was the Emre Can goal to make it 3-1. It was like we are being forced to eat up another dose of the resilient Liverpool that beat off adversity to rise to wonderful new highs. But then Karius, Lovren and Lucas looked at one another and made us all feel better about ourselves.

This result was good for the fans because realistically fourth would still be a blinding season, and third or second would be an incredible base to build up from in Klopp’s first full season. Chelsea have no distractions, just like us, and slightly fewer weakness but also maybe an equal number of strengths. They are the favourites right now and I’d rather Liverpool storm in from behind rather than being top now and letting the pressure mount and mount on a young and inexperienced squad. It manages expectations but doesn’t leave us out of touch.

Like the De Bruyne miss yesterday, the Origi chance at the beginning and end, both missed, are really sad looking back now. But Liverpool still managed to go about 5 hours without conceding a goal…probably a record of the past few years. Matip probably helps the defence in that him and Karius can speak German and so it might be easier to keep organised between them and we can still improve as some of the youngsters grow in experience and confidence.

If you offered me third or fourth right now, I’d bite your hand off. This result is disappointing but will give the team a good old kick up the caboose about how tough this league can be.

Bournemouth were great today. If they play like that they’ll take more points off big teams in the future. Hats off to them. Bastards.
Minty, LFC

 

Six things we learned
I’m still trying to make sense of it

How we let this slip, how our blistering start to the league sees us behind Arsenal who have been pedestrian for large swathes of the season, how our defence which we looked we sorted imploded again, how we are still above Peps city, how our goals for campaign is still ridiculous, how we’ve beat both teams above us

Observations from the match

1. Eddie Howe subs were great, they change the game. Fraser gets the plaudits but Afobe makes things tough for us aswell.

2. Subs seem to be a flaw of Klopp, no one really mentions this I hear a lot of complaints about Wenger and Potch substitutions but Jurgen tends to be too conservative with attacking subs but seldom especially pragmatic with bringing on an extra defensive body. After Europa final Klopp got some flack for subs but it’s a trend (bringing on Origi ahead of Sturridge was top banter though)

3. Lovren is a good enough defensive partner but not a leader. Stick him next to a Matip or Fonte (or even Sakho) and he can keep his head and do a job a Lucas or a Skrtel less so.

4. Seeing Firmino out wide reminded me why we had the Sturridge not wanting to play on the left fiasco, Firmino is better than Sturridge through the middle and Sturridge better than Firmino on the left.

5. A lack of leadership has been blamed for the collapse. I think Henderson is a good captain for Liverpool and will (surely!) make a good England captain but Viera or Keane he is not. But as much a leader as Cahill, lloris, Rooney, whoever does it for city when Kompany is injured, probably

6. Why do we lose? A bit of all the above. We remain not good in set pieces and Matip not being there brings that out clearly. Klopp could be more proactive. Jordan needed to kick some Arse and rally the team. Dejan and James Milner both lose their head and Nathaniel and Lucas can’t bail them out or snap them out of it. Karius has a bad game and that spreads (but Migs can stay on the bench thanks). When the going gets tough Newcastle fans will tell you turning to Wiji isn’t ideal and we’ve also got a recovering Lallana and Can who was in the wars in the game.

Also Origi nearly wins it in added time and we wouldn’t have this chat, weird game, let’s not lose our heads, and we’ve not learnt anything we didn’t already know
Oli, Brighton

 

Justice for Loris
Yesterday was Loris Karius’s first defeat in a Liverpool shirt. The only other points Liverpool have dropped with him in goal have been nil-nil draws.

Just let that sink in as you read all the obituaries to his Liverpool career and to Liverpool’s season. Yes he had a poor game, but get a grip people.
Martin (Warrington)

 

Same old
This whole “as long as we score more goals it’s fine” thing is a lot less fun when we don’t actually score more goals, you know!

Anyway, it’s not that bad I guess. I almost forgot what it was like to be a Liverpool fan this season. Thanks for the timely reminder. Anything but a win against West Ham and I know we’re back for good.
— Abhinav, LFC, Chicago.

 

Bring back Mamadou
If Guardiola can kiss and make up with Yaya Toure, why can’t Klopp do the same with Sakho? At least we may have had some semblance of a central defense and a point or three. Lucas is not a James Milner and never will be so playing him as a defender was never going to work. Milner is a club man who puts in a great shift and then some no matter where he plays. One in a thousand.

Best wishes
Joe -Speedy Signs

 

Thoughts from a Bournemouth fan
When I got in from the game my mother-in-law asked me what the mood was like waking home. “Disbelief” I said, and that view hasn’t changed.

For the entire first half Bournemouth were overrun. Adam Smith was lost at left-back, and although Firmino and Mane weren’t as fluid at interchanging as much as I expected, 2-0 was the bare minimum Liverpool deserved.

Even after the penalty, which looked marginal from my seat at the opposite end of the ground, Can’s goal seemed to have sealed it and we always felt that Liverpool had another gear. But I felt the game hinged on a totally insignificant-looking moment. Smith had gone past Can and been fouled, the play went forward 25 yards and then bizarrely the free-kick given, seemingly so Can could get treatment too. After that Liverpool went backwards and the mix of Fraser’s pace and Afobe’s presence bothered them.

Bournemouth actually played better last week at Arsenal, but today the spirit and drive was great to see. I would however be interested to know how many officials without technology would have awarded the Boruc over-the-line incident – looked like a goal to me level with the edge of the penalty area, and it was telling that everybody in line looked very relieved!

Two grumbles to finish – firstly Bournemouth fans booing Lallana – his sell-on fee paid for a stand! Secondly to the bloke who sits in front of me who left after 85 minutes – why??
Andy J, Bournemouth