Mails: Ronaldo and Messi > Pele and ‘Fat Ronaldo’

Joe Williams

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Greatest goal ever?
There was a conversation in the studio last night about whether that was Ronaldo’s greatest goal and that got me thinking about what the greatest goal I have ever seen was.

I maintain it’s still Bergkamp’s against Newcastle on the grounds that Dennis is the only player with the audacity to ever try something like that.

His explanation that that was the quickest way of getting to the ball astounds me to this day.

I’ve seen overhead kicks scored by a number of players (Sinclair’s is still the best), in and outy goals like Roberto Carlos’ Tournoi classic and dribbling past the whole team a la Maradonna ’86 but I’ve never seen a goal scored like Dennis’ that day.
Graham Simons

 

The true top 5 greats
Who in your opinion makes it onto a list of the true top 5 legends to have played the game?

IMO Messi and Ronaldo come in at #1 and #2 on the list (controversial I know!), though realistically I could never know if it were actually true having never seen Pele, Maradona or Cruyff play.
My opinion is entirely based off of the way others talk about them and the odd 240p YouTube compilation as a result.
Is there anybody here old enough to have remembered them playing? And if so where do they place on the list?

My own top 5 based on people I have actually seen play would be.

#1 – Messi
#2 – Ronaldo
#3 – Ronaldinho
#4 – Fat Ronaldo
#5 –  ̶G̶e̶r̶r̶a̶r̶d̶  Iniesta
Oliver (Yes, I’m a Liverpool fan)

 

He’s only gone and said it…
I’m gonna go out and say it, Ronaldo and Messi are better than Pele and Ronaldo. I know diet, pitches, foes, rules and everything has changed since they played, but anyone who doesn’t think those two aren’t the absolute peak of footballing ability is being wilfully obtuse. Regardless of the numbers, for shear duration of dominance, competitions won etc we are lucky to witness, week after week, month after month, season after season, players of their calibre repeatedly delivering for us as fans.
Last night Ronaldo reminded us of his amazing and unrelenting pursuit of excellence. And I am sure Messi will now want to one up him. Both players can be successfully argued as the greatest of all time on their own, but that they spur one another on to achieve even more amazing feats just enables all us neutrals to sit back and admire. This is why I love football. To see people do things I never could.
John Matrix AFC

 

Greatness v. quality
The reason we struggle to compare players like Ronaldo and Messi is because we are rarely agreed on the metrics.

As requested I am going to avoid any direct comparisons here, but I would like to use Ronaldo to draw a distinction between “greatness” and “quality”.

Normally when we compare players we are talking of quality.  In other words, who is the “better” player, when defined simply as who is better at the game of football.  Who would win in a 1 vs. 1.  Who would have better stats on Fifa.  That sort of thing.

There are certainly cases to be made that Ronaldo is not the “best” (highest quality) footballer playing the game today, let alone of all time.  But if we change the metric to “greatness” our judgement of him may change.

I would define “greatness” as something broader than “quality”.  It contains quality within it of course (it’s impossible to be a great player without being a very good one), but it also brings some other things into the mix.  Trophies would be an obvious one – did they use their quality to achieve things.  Big game moments would be another.  Does their career have outstanding “narrative moments”?  Would it, in other words, make a good movie?  And then there is the personality element.  Are they big characters?  Are they leaders?  Are they loved and admired by their teammates.  And finally you have a certain sense of triumph against adversity; of working hard to get where they were, of making the most of what they have, of challenging themselves in their career, of doing it over many years in many similar locations.

Using this idea of “greatness” you can see that, for instance, someone like Zlatan probably is a “greater” player than he is a “good” player.

However, for sheer greatness, I’m not sure anyone can match Ronaldo.  It’s not that his ability is so high; it’s more that he uses in such compelling ways.  Last night was the perfect example of that.  The biggest stage, in the most spectacular of ways, combined with a bit of a narrative of him being past his best.

It’s this type of stuff that the game’s all about!  Love it.
Alex

 

Ronaldo and Messi
Now that Ronaldo is pretty much an out and out striker (rather than the wide forward of previous years), you could actually get him and Messi in the same team and make it work! Can Man City or PSG please spunk a ridiculous amount of cash so we can all see this please?!
Kind Regards, Graham Jones

 

Truly ridiculous
Three thoughts for the day:

1. Given his performance last night and every night (even on a cold night in Stoke), and the resultant Truly Ridiculous Statistics, I continue to be relieved and delighted that Ronaldo left United.  I’m pretty certain that not even Moyes could have buggered up there.

2. Ahead of tonight’s match, please can you run an article akin to the excellent Every PL Managers’ Nemesis, entitled Every PL Team’s Nemesis.  I know it will only provide momentary comfort but it’s good to know City’s nemesis over the last 50 years has been Liverpool.

3. Thank you to Phil (Sutton/Spurs/England) for his excellent suggestion.  I have today joined Amnesty International and will enjoy the World Cup with a slightly clearer conscience.   I will be making a massive donation in 2022.
Rob (LFC and too nervous to work)

 

Ronaldo’s first goal
In a way it’s a shame Ronaldo scored that bicycle kick, because it overshadowed his fantastic goal in the third minute. How many players in the world could have taken it on the right foot and placed it so unsaveably inside the right post? An absolutely classic striker’s goal, from a guy who didn’t become a striker until well into an already brilliant career. I love that man.
Peter G, Pennsylvania, USA

 

Love to see the stars comparing Ronaldo to WBA
Was never a big fan of Ronaldo the person, always preening and pouting and needy. But one can only admire his drive to be a consummate professional. As fit as any athlete can possibly be for his age, constantly striving to win and be the best. Perhaps if Messi hadn’t been around their would be less need to pout and preen.

And then compare to our West Brom ‘professionals’ who, when finally being treated like an adult for once, decide to steal a taxi while being given a special break to gel and work on their game.

In the end Pardew gets a lot of flack, and probably deserved.

But if I ever here any of them called or talk about themselves as professionals, I am going to tweet them a picture of Ronaldo.

And for all those wonder boys who never quite grow up and never seem to get that no matter how talented, you need drive, determination and a lot of hard work to make it at the top.
Paul McDevitt

 

Long mail about Spurs…
Maybe it’s paranoia or being over defensive but it feels like Tottenham are constantly being told what they haven’t yet been able to achieve.  I suppose it’s the result of being a big club that have never quite dominated, never quite convinced.  I recall that Spurs had never finished in the top 6 in the Premier League.  Tick (eventually).  We were then told they were the richest club to never qualify for the champions League (who comes up with this stuff?).  Tick.  It’s now all about winning a trophy, perhaps the last stick to beat them with (and a reasonable one I suppose).  What about some of the other challenges Spurs have unlocked over the years?

I first became aware of one of these “hoodoos” when during a particularly bad season for Spurs in the mid-90s, Dennis Wise said he hoped they’d survive relegation as they were a guaranteed source of 6 points for Chelsea each season.  Spurs hadn’t beaten Chelsea home or away since before football technically began, and it took until November 2006 to achieve this.  Having gone a goal down to a Makelele goal (come on), Spurs came back with goals from Michael Dawson and Aaron Lennon to claim the long awaited victory.

Another accusation thrown at Spurs (well, it was true to be fair) was that they couldn’t win at Old Trafford.  Spurs hadn’t won there since the ice age or something, and in early 2005 that should have changed.  We all remember what happened when Pedro Mendes launched that shot from A Very Long Way Out, and given how late in the game that was it’s fair to say it could have been a victory at last, after all Man Utd never scored late goals if I recall correctly.

Spurs had to wait until 2012 to finally claim a win there under AVB, squeezing it in just before Sir Alex Ferguson retired.  Just to show it wasn’t a fluke, they did it again the following season under the tactical guidance of Tim Sherwood.

In 2017 Spurs finally finished above Arsenal in the Arsene Wenger era, having decided not to bother a year earlier in preference to losing 5-1 to the already relegated 10 men of Newcastle United.  For many years we were told that there was a power shift in North London – it turned out to be true even though the “shift” was the speed of your favourite slow lump of a defender (I’ll go for Fazio to be on brand here).

And finally in 2018 Spurs claimed their first away win at Stamford Bridge, perhaps the last of these curses to be banished.  Just like the victory that started this in 2006 Spurs went a goal down only to come back to claim victory.  Interesting to note that the two hoodoo breaking victories against Chelsea came after going a goal down, as well as the league cup final 2008 against the same opposition, and in the classic 5-3 victory on New Year’s Day 2015.  Bottlers.

Now if only Harry Kane could score in August.
Kevin G