Anelka: Drop quenelle charge

West Brom's Nicolas Anelka has asked the Football Association to drop their charge over his controversial 'quenelle' goal celebration.

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Comments 1 - 10 of (22)

dryice says...

Has this gone a little off topic, other than to highlight that there are often 2 contrasting sides to every story and compelling reasons for both, a very sombre way of making that point though.

Posted 3:11pm 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

@kfb - PS - You quote the 4 million figure, but you clearly fail to acknowledge that, as has been pointed out, the official Auschwitz historical experts themselves officially admitted this number was completely wrong and revised the 4 million number down to 1.3 million - and that number has since been revised down again to around 900,000 (just to re-iterate, those figures must still be viewed as horrific),but this official example of revisionism is never condemned and is indeed often not even reflected in the 6 million figure, which should accordingly be revised. This is not just about mere academic debate or cold review of numbers. It should always be acknowledged there was death and suffering, and this should be condemned and acknowledged, but this should not preclude accurate and open debate and review of the official narrative, and should not mean that such debate is censored or overshadowed with false accusations of anti-semitism, just as the holocausts of the Native Americans and the Holocaust of millions of Ukrainians in the Soviet Union are and should remain open to debate (whereas it seems debate over the official WW2 Holocaust narrative is protected by aggressive censorship).

Posted 1:36pm 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

@kfb - There are objective analyses of the evidence, or lack there-of, to be found, if you look for them, that objectively critique witness testimony, and objectively question the technical feasibility of the officially claimed methods of extermination, and question the "evidence" presented at Birkenau and elsewhere, and many of these questions remain unchallenged and have never been refuted by official Holocaust researchers, who instead take the route of demanding all objective historical investigation and resultant research and evidence be demonised, censored and even outlawed. Anti-zionism does not always equate to anti-semitism. Questioning of aspects of the Holocaust should not be branded automatically as "denial", rather it should be permitted as a function of free-speaking historical enquiry, and not always pounced on as "anti-semitic". These facts have been established by Jewish and non-Jewish anti-zionists, of whom there are a growing number.

Posted 1:15pm 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

@hammerguy - The 6 million figure is raised and the phrase "specifically gassed" is used because the official narrative continues to broadcast the statement that "6 million Jews were gassed" (notice how that official phrase omits reference to deaths of gypsies and other minorities), even in light of official massive downward revisions by the Aushcwitz official historians. Other comments were submitted, detailing how many of the deaths, according to official Red Cross reports and other researchers, note that deaths came about through other means, and re-iterating that any level of deaths must be viewed as horrific, but this does not preclude debate as to why gross inaccuracies in the official narrative are forbidden to be debated, and those comments were not published by F365, hence an incomplete picture is given of the points I was trying to make, in relation to the compelx debate surrounding the quenelle/anti-zionism as opposed to anti-semitism and restrictions on freedom of expression in objective historical analysis of these issues.

Posted 12:57pm 23rd January 2014

hammerguy (West Ham United) says...

questiontime has clearly given a lot of thought and spent a lot of time in critisizing the "official Holocaust" figures. I'm not sure what the hell any of this has to do with football though. And nor am I certain why he states that the 6 Million figure relates, as he so charmingly puts it, to those who were "specifically gassed". I think that most people had taken it to also include those that were shot, beaten, stabbed, worked or starved to death. As well as to those who died during so called medical experiments or as a result of typhus or any of the other diseases that were prevalent in the camps. Move along please.

Posted 12:42pm 23rd January 2014

kfb (Arsenal) says...

Questiontime - Have you been to Auswitz? Have you seen the "death camp" Birkenau, where thousands of Jews were gassed by the Nazis? Or were the 5 gas chamber/crematoria buildings just a figment of historians' imagination? They killed so many people, the crematoria couldn't cope and mass graves had to be dug for disposal of bodies. The commandant of Auswitz originally estimated that more than 4 million had been killed at his camp, but rapidly backtracked once he was charged with war crimes. Fortunately for mankind he was still tried and executed.

Posted 12:34pm 23rd January 2014

east stand dave (Arsenal) says...

I can see it from both points of view. From those that are offended by it, then obviously this is a really stupid (at best) thing for Anelka to do. But if he genuinely meant it as an up yours gesture then you sort of have to feel for him because being branded something you're not is horrible. However, if a white player made a gesture which had two meanings, and one of those meanings was racist to black people, would there be room for debate like there is here? I don't think so. So yes Anelka deserves the punishment and while he's suspended he should research why it is offensive to Jewish people

Posted 12:32pm 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

Kudos to F365 for publishing the comments submitted re: anti-zionism not necessarily equating to anti-semitism. Many mainstream media outlets simply censor these issues without objectivity.

Posted 11:39am 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

Gilad Atzmon - a widely admired Jewish jazz saxophonist and former IDF (Israel Defence Force) soldier, has published some interesting thoughts on the debate on his website about the Anelka quenelle and the general debate about znti-Zionism not always equating to anti-semitism. Other noted heavyweights of Jewish academia and the Jewish faith who have questioned Zionism are Norman Finkelstein; Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of the Neturei Karta Orthodox Jews and Ronen Berelovich, former Israeli soldier and producer of the film called "The Zionist Story".

Posted 11:31am 23rd January 2014

questiontime says...

Really hope this comment is published to add to the previous comment: It is important to note that one of the comments submitted for publication made the following point (and please do your own verification of this, even by researching the official Auschwitz historical sources)....Some countries under pressure from lobby groups have jailed people who question aspects of the official Holocaust narrative, even those who provide detailed research to support their views questioning the official narrative. Official Holocaust historians have also acted as Holocaust revisionists (but have not been prosecuted). For example - the official Auschwitz historians themselves revised the number they claimed had been gassed at Auschwitz from 4 million down to 1.3 million then down to around 900,000; still horrific, yet the 6 million figure is still broadcast everywhere, whereas the millions who have now been officially removed from the Auschwitz death toll should, according to many researchers, also be deducted from the 6 million figure.

Posted 11:02am 23rd January 2014

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