Why do Arsenal boil everyone’s p*ss so much? Liverpool ‘respect’ them and ‘desperate’ City showed ‘fear’

There is a fair amount of defending Arsenal in the Mailbox, which seems to agree that ‘hypocritical’ Manchester City were made to look ‘desperate’.

Send your thoughts to theeditor@football365.com.

The late draw was better than a win
A quick point on the City-Arsenal game: Arsenal conceding a late goal is ultimately better for them than securing the win. Look at how much it meant to every player, coach, and the manager of the champions to nick an equalizer in the 97th minute. Look at how hard they had to work against 10 men, at home. That’s how rattled they are by Arsenal. They are scared that even with everything in their favour, they could only just manage a draw. They celebrated out of relief and fought out of embarrassment. The game was a draw by score only. Now Arsenal knows they have the capability to win, and they know that City knows it too. If Arsenal had won, we would have seen disappointment in City’s eyes. Instead, we saw fear.
Matt

Haaland’s housery
I sincerely believe that if this behavior is tolerated, w/out any repercussions- at least a fine- the next matches will be City vs second hand considered teams, with City being perpetual champions, the rules being applied only to the other teams.

And things can get out of control on the pitch.

It’s just adding to the hundreds of accusations already “cleared”.

Consider bringing foreign referees while there is still time.
Bob Constant, Toronto

Overreactions
Two observations about this morning’s mailbox:

1) Rich, AFC informs us that City are ‘the ones currently facing 115 charges for flagrant cheating of the rules’. They are not. They are facing charges for allegedly breaking rules, which is entirely different, and unless Rich knows something that the vast majority of us do not, he should let the due process play out & not make daft statements like this.

2) Klaus Zirker, Johannesburg states that ‘After each goal has been scored it is now possible to hurl the match ball at the head of an opposing side’s player’ & ‘the referee in a match took no action whatsoever against the ball thrower’.

Firstly, that was no hurl or even a throw really. It was a light bounce if anything, there is no need to exaggerate it.

Secondly, how does Klaus know that the referee saw the incident? If he didn’t he can’t take any action. If he did he probably deemed it nothing more than the comedy incident it was, that I am sure that the vast majority of people saw it as.

Regards,
A, LFC, Montreal.

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The Arsenal goalposts keep moving
Reading the mailbox with intrigue after the City v Arsenal fall out.  Arsenal really do boil many fans p*ss don’t they.  Amazing how the goalposts for Arsenal keep changing by the day. The standards Arsenal seem to be held to are different. We’ve gone the entire of 2024 away from home without losing – only been behind for 13 minutes of all those games, won at Spurs 3 times in a row, have gone 5 unbeaten away to chelsea (including 3 wins), beat Man U at old trafford and remain undefeated in our last 2 games away to City and Liverpool – but yet some rival fans still demand that we actually show up in these big games away from home. All we’ve done is show up! Arsenal are the best away team in the league.

This weird take that Arsenal ‘MUST’ beat Man City away has never been applied to any other title challenging team, and its simply false that you have to beat last years winner away from home to win the title. Arsenal are being hounded for going all out defence with 10 men to hold a lead away to Man City. Here are the results of every other big 6 team who has had a red card at City in recent seasons: Chelsea lost 6-0, Liverpool lost 5-0, spurs lost 3-0, Man U lost 4-1. 3 seasons ago Arsenal lost 5-0 when Xhaka was sent off.

Arsenal did what they had to do to get a result. Completely nullified City and are being made out to be the losers here. Did everyone want us to put 9 men on the halfway line like Ange? Virtually every City player has done a bitter interview after the game whilst Arsenal have kept their counsel, yet all we see is talk of dark arts and nothing about whinging City who played poorly to break down a 10 man defence, don’t let yourself be fooled that Arsenal went there to park the bus, sure circumstances dictated that in the second half but first half had us high up the pitch. Let’s also remeber Real Madrid took a 0-0 at City in the CL with 20% of the ball and were absolutely lauded for it, ‘they just find a way’.

For years Arsenal were told to ‘man up’, stop being soft, stop rolling over and getting our bellies tickled to the big clubs, stop being naïve, realise a set piece goal is worth just as much as a beautiful flowing team move and realise that pretty football doesn’t always win – absolutely ridiculed for it for years.  Now we are the opposite, we are professional, organised, physical, more the bullies than the bullied and lo and behold everyone wets their knickers about this as well!

Raya took some time over his goal kicks, as every team does when down to 10 and protecting a lead, and we are routinely told those teams (usually an underdog) are under no obligation to play quickly etc. and do you know which team has taken the longest time on average for their goal kicks this season….Man City.

Sky showed that Trossard kicks the ball 0.84 seconds after the refs whistle goes – yes defend it in letter of the law if you want but that is farcical if you want players to react that quickly.  Pundits and fans lining up saying Trossard knew exactly what he was doing is pure speculation, refs trying to guess what is going on in a players mind has tended to be an area of officiating that refs have shied away from, look at the lack of strict punishment for diving, or for feigning injury. PGMOL are trying to solve a problem that wasn’t really there in a misguided attempt to exert their authority on the game, and in the process they’ve opened themselves up to ridicule at the lack of consistency because on such a technical aspect of the law fans will rush to point at identical situations which is far more difficult to do with fouls or handballs. This is what upsets Arsenal fans – we can point to multiple identical incidents where we are the only ones being punished, and seemingly never allowed the benefit of the doubt.

Arsenal fans are shouting loud because we do feel like we are the team that is very often on the end of not just bad decisions but technical law infractions that are rarely enforced for every other team.  And surely ask yourself why it is so often its Arsenal fans specifically moaning about it, don’t try to convince yourselves fans of your big name team wouldn’t be doing the same if it was the other way round, certainly at the big club end of the spectrum we’re all very much the same in our ability to whip up a storm and cry foul. The mailbox will always have fans complaining about decisions and the harsh treatment their team has, but on the scale Arsenal fans do. Are we all deluded and every other teams fans rational, or is there more to get upset about? Bad decisions happen but when you feel and can evidence you are constantly singled out to face the strictest letter of the law whilst others fly by you are going to shout about it.

If refs are simply incompetent then you’d expect some real shockers to go Arsenal’s way, the kind of game deciding red cards for opponents, where you have to admit ‘we got given one there’, or ‘you rarely see those given’. Arsenal haven’t had a single opponent sent off for violent conduct since the introduction of VAR 5 seasons ago, not even one harsh one that was fiercely debated or later overturned. In that same time frame Arsenal have had 18 red cards and our opponents only 9 – those 9 opponent red cards have all been given when Arsenal were already winning the game – so changed little, compared to 14 of Arsenal’s red cards being handed out when we were winning or drawing the game – quite an impact.  For the other big 6 teams they have all had their opponents given more reds than themselves in the same 5 year period.
Under Arteta Arsenal average a red card every 11 games in the league, but in Europe that’s every 35 games.

Since 2019 Arsenal have received red cards at double the rate per foul than all but 3 prem teams and are a huge statistical outlier of all prem teams. Red card every 65 fouls for Arsenal, next worst is every 100 fouls, most teams are at at least 120 fouls per red. Arsenal tend not to get straight red cards, only 1 of the last 8, so why are Arsenal picking up second yellow cards at a rate miles out of kilter with the rest of the league over such a long time period. Technical infringements, are we all to really believe that Arsenal are making these technical infringements on the law at a rate that is double anyone else in the league? Or are Arsenal being singled out for greater punishment? Let’s remember when Arteta had his FA hearing after the Newcastle ‘disgrace-gate’ the FA’s case against Arteta argued he was more deserving of harsher punishment than other managers because of his higher profile.

I’ll finish by going back to the start of this longer than anticipated mail, what is it about Arsenal that boils everyone’s p*ss….and so much so that you’d all rather cheer on a team who has systematically cheated the system for 10+ years? And if you are angry enough with Arsenal to form some responses to that question ask yourself if those are any reasons you can’t label at any of Pep’s, Klopp’s, Jose’s, Fergie’s or Wenger’s teams in the past.
Rich,AFC

READ NEXT: Man City FFP verdict ‘expected imminently’ as Premier League clubs fear ‘far-reaching consequences’

Dangerous
As I’m certain this debate will rumble on, also wanted to push back about Arsenal’s ‘dirtiness’ – compared to other teams in the past – to stress that none of it is dangerous/risky to the opposition.

No-one is putting in levellers, or throwing elbows. The closest Arsenal have come to a full tackle was Timber last week and that was nowhere near a sending off.

It’s rich City players getting up in their feelings when they have a player in Kovacic who is happy to go in studs up from behind on players like he did Wissa last week (and Odegaard/Rice last season).

Arsenal having players get second yellows for delaying the game, but refs not issuing yellows/second yellows for dangerous tackles, using their ‘discretion’, is double standards and clearly the latter would benefit player welfare more.

It seems like this is more about perceived ‘respect’ than actual sanity – referees already have facilities to add more time – they shouldn’t be spoiling the game.

Something to be clear we know they think about and has frequently been used as justification not to send players off for dangerous play or reckless challenges.
Tom, Leyton

Learning from the best
If there’s one truth that seems fairly universal amongst football fans, it’s that we have a uniquely high tolerance for cognitive dissonance—one prime example being the ability to castigate other teams for time-wasting and gamesmanship while totally ignoring it when our team does the same. I’m guilty of it, my friends who watch football are guilty of it… but I’m sure the esteemed Mailbox contributors who wrote in after the City-Arsenal match on Saturday to voice their concerns undoubtedly turn that same critical eye on their own 11 angels each week, of course.

Even with my expectations for self-awareness being as low as they are, I still let out a few hearty guffaws on the sh*tter (alarming my wife in the process) when I read the City players’ comments about Arsenal’s “game management” after the match. Genuine question: who the f*ck do they think Mikel Arteta learned it from?

I mean seriously, do we remember Pep’s Barcelona teams from the late 2000s/early 2010s? Dani Alves, Puyol, Sergio f**king Busquets, even Xavi and Iniesta—probably the best teams I’ve ever seen in my life, but my god did they spend time on the ground clutching an impressive array of body parts while their teammates remonstrated with the referee. And now those same City players line up alongside Rodri, king of the unpunished shirt tug, each week… I mean, sheesh.
Just Some Guy

Why is Michael Oliver considered the best?
I’m not going to get into the specifics of Arsenal’s issues with referees (because lord KNOWS it’s been covered), but I would like to talk about Michael Oliver in general.

The guy was fast tracked to the Premier League when he was still in his mid-20s, because for some reason the PGMOL thought he was some sort of superstar in the making, but after all these years I’ve always been utterly perplexed as to why he’s considered the country’s top referee, because he’s just so, so bad.

Last season he stood and watched Declan Rice kick a Spurs player squarely in the knackers RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM and thought it was apparently fine. It was only when VAR stepped in that he was forced to give a penalty. We all watched this summer’s Euros, marvelling at how efficient and sensible VAR could be…until Oliver refereed a game, at which point it suddenly reverted to the long, drawn out spectacle of confusion that we’ve grown accustomed to in the Premier League.

I read an interview many years ago with Pierluigi Collina, where he said he would spend time studying individual teams’ style of play in order to get a sense of their formations and movement so he could be better placed to see things, whilst also staying out of the way of the action. Michael Oliver somehow manages to get in the way during every game he referees. In at least three games I watched last season, he had to stop the play for a drop ball because he’d broken down a team’s attack by deciding to place himself in the middle of the play. Ricardo Calafiori’s goal on Sunday came after he was forced to change the direction of his run because OIiver was stood exactly where Calafiori wanted to be. I rarely notice this sort of thing from other referees. In fact, I can barely even name most other referees, because I hardly notice them, which really is how it should be.

Every game Oliver takes charge of seems to descend into undisciplined madness, so it’s not even as if he has ‘can control the players’ on his list of attributes. He never gets held to account, he never gets removed from games – even those with a direct conflict of interest – he just consistently gets awarded the biggest games and plum international gigs, and then every week Howard Webb and co will fall over themselves explaining that, actually, that absolutely mental thing he did was actually very cool and extremely normal, despite mountains of evidence – usually their own evidence – to the contrary.

So I ask, and this is a genuine question that I’d like to know the answer to, why is he considered by the governing body to be such a shining beacon of refereeing perfection? What has he done in the past 15 years to merit this position as the pinnacle of refereeing excellence?
Matt, AFC

A ‘neutral’ (Liverpool) take
Thought Id wade in..

Am about as neutral as I can be as I dislike both teams the same..

Hated the time wasting and cheating. Its why I dont watch La Liga and the 2 Spaniards showed their colours here, HOWEVER… It was an utter joy to watch it happen against City. Them moaning about ‘housery’ is just too wonderful. Well done Arsenal

But then the ref added alot of the housery time on and it came back to bite you – I love that equally as much, There is little better than a team timewasting for 55mins and losing a goal in the dying seconds – karma’s a bitch ain’t it.

Oliver… well well.. over all I thought about right.. Yes I would def be upset as Kyle Walker tbh but .. I was more upset with Diaz goal / offside v Spurs.. so lets not get too worried shall we.. alot had to happen still – and it was some finish.

The yellow for booting the ball away, that he seemed to almost stop himself doing, while Doku, was it? didnt get one.. seemed a little like an agenda, the card was out before Trossards leg had come back down (it felt like)

Im not sure Mr Oliver will (or should) get a high profile game next week…

I think a good result for us really. 2 point dropped each. about right I reckon

Oh Martinez… ‘if he hadnt got the ball it was a red’.. was the comment I heard on sky.. I mean if thats not a read then bloody hell. So we actually have to break someone to make it a red – Intent to harm, or risk to / endangering a player.. is no longer a thing.

Daftest / more dangerous ‘tackle’ I have seen in as long as I can think..

Madness.

Keep ya head down Arne and keep saying sensible things. I love it – Fight for the top spot, I dont think so, Comfy in 3rd.. I hope so
With last years tired / fell of a cliff at the end, players and a new manager to bed in. Im pleasantly surprised so far. Long may it continue

Be interesting to see if he makes many changes v West Ham..
Al – LFC. Pretty happy so far. ( 5 games in… lets not get too carried away)

I have seen a lot of city fans complaining about arsenal’s dark arts football breaking up play.

That’s a bit hypocritical. Under Jürgen about two thirds of our games against city were ones in which city repeatedly commited tactical fouling to break up play when we were dominating or breaking into their half. So it’s hard to have sympathy for city on that.

Honestly, I think most people who’ve seen my posts know how much I dislike defensive football and that I don’t enjoy arteta tactics but I can’t have anything but respect for making city look so desperate and for basically being a brick wall for almost 60 minutes against a team with an infinite budget who may or may not have cheated (they did – it’s really about if premier league thinks settling is is worth preventing an appeal) who have the best manager in football, the best striker in football, the best defensive midfielder in football in their home stadium. It’s honestly like the ending of rocky when he tells Apollo he won’t go down again.

Even if nobody else is saying it, I think that’s worthy of a tip of the hat, and I f**king hate defensive football.

Also I got my wish! I asked for a draw with an injury and red card. Shame I dont gamble.
Lee 

By 11mm for one, 11 million miles the other
You ever had one of those mates growing up that did little else than bite your style ?  Perhaps they started listening to all the bands you liked or bought the same trainers.  Maybe they take an offhand remark you’ve made, recycle it, use it to chat up all the lowest hanging fruit at the bars that night.  Suddenly they’ve got the same haircut too.  Now imagine young lad Mikel Arteta as this friend-o, regurgitating life as you know it, falling short most times but occasionally, just occasionally (and annoyingly) coming up trumps on something borrowed.

For the bulk of this dodgy, sky blue hegemony that Club Manchester Superior have enjoyed, there have been exactly 1.5 clubs that have legitimately challenged City Football Group’s crown jewel on the pitch:  Liverpool are one, Arsenal recently, the other.  Now, I’ll let you be the ones to contemplate which of the two has been a tetchy, inorganic, dark arts-practitioner of a half-contender…  the 0.5 club.

On Merseyside, Klopp famously hired throw-in coaches and sports psychologists looking for the finest of fine margins to bridge competitive gaps; Arteta decides to pipe opposition anthems (ours, incidentally) over their training ground tannoy.  He hires professional pickpockets, draws funny nonsensical cartoons on whiteboards.  Pretty sure he’s time-sharing the same wardrobe with Pep most days too, meticulously laying out his next day outfit the evening before.

Anyone recall the tale of a gifted combo-midfielder forced to play right wingback ?  We rescued that wingback; his name is Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain.  We signed him (from Arsenal, incidentally) and once bedded in, he went on rather sharp ascent, showing graft and scoring a few worldies (one against Manchester Superior, incidentally) before having his wings clipped cruelly by injury.  We stuck with him all through rehab until he moved on.

I also remember the signing of Sadio Mane, how he scored an absolute beauty on debut (at the Emirates, incidentally) and leapt onto his manager’s back for a memorable piggyback ride in a sea of smiles.  Over the weekend I’d seen an Italian left back score an absolute beauty (on debut too, incidentally) running excitedly towards his manager only for the manager to shrink and pivot, stone faced on the touchline, for fear of messing his Pep-edition trousers or herniating a disc, who knows.

When Liverpool are reduced to 10 men and trailing, Klopp brings on a bull-in-china-shop striker to score two late to take the points at St James’.  When Liverpool are reduced to 9 (in North London Inferior, incidentally), they continue to attack, take the lead even, and flame out only following an explosion of (good) process-driven controversy that substantially favors the opposition.  Pointedly, Arteta with 10 men becomes Simeone or Pulis or Allardyce, or a late-stage bus chauffeur Mourinho, take your pick.

So here are two clubs giving their all to chase down an opponent with endless resources and deeply questionable (for now) sporting integrity and ethics.  But the way they’ve gone about it could not be more contrasting in spirit, optics or execution.  Or luck.  We never faced City in a season with their Rodri-sized vacuum in the heart of midfield, or anything close to.  City never had a thousand litigious charges hanging over them while their ownership group went to trial.  Our respective pursuits of the premiership have been chalk and cheese.

If Arsenal don’t prevail this year or even next, they have a strong nucleus likely also young enough to outlast Guardiola’s longest, most optimistically projected tenure.  Arsenal really should win a title now / soon / eventually / inevitably.  Just don’t expect the red and white ribbons to come with much original or enviable swazz.  They’re the club who’ve come to ape everyone else, hoping to outlast and swoop.  Then they’ll say it was them all along, real real.
Eric, Los Angeles  CA  (Weekend daftness aside, Trossard has been a great signing for them…  except then you realize it was Mudryk they’d wanted, and Trossard pitched up there with little reason or rhyme.)

MORE ON MANCHESTER CITY V ARSENAL FROM F365
👉 Premier League winners and losers: Maresca, Arsenal and Kelleher impress but West Ham, Howe, O’Neil struggle
👉 16 Conclusions on Man City 2-2 Arsenal: A quite ridiculous end to a quite ridiculous game

Toon troubles
No idea how to explain the funk at Newcastle at the moment as it all seems a bit petty. Is an argument between the manager and Sporting Director enough to unsettle players so much that it takes them 45 minutes to remember how to play? If new signings were needed to enable Newcastle to play better what does that say about the XI on the pitch, who are not meeting the standards they set over a season ago? Have they all just regressed?

There were a lot of reasons/excuses for things not going well last season but they do not have them now (no European games, fewer injuries). The Wimbledon postponement is a blessing as they need to have a talk with themselves over what is happening, particularly in the first halves of every game this season so far. ‘Intensity is our identity’ is the motto but its completely lacking. Then again in each game so far the post match talk has been about making improvements, which doesn’t seem to be happening.

Howe is sticking to his formation but not doing anything to address the problems which have been there for all to see for a year now. Howe still has a lot of faith from the fans but that will run short if he can’t get a tune out of what is 9-10 of his first choice XI (Botman the main absentee, Isak out on Saturday).

He doesn’t seem the type to change his principles or formation, but I wonder if its worth considering shifting to 4231 with Bruno pushed further forward to provide more threat which he is capable of. There has to be some way to get a tune out of him as at the moment, he feels way off where he was, and there’s so little creativity for Newcastle in the middle something has to shift.

We’re being sucked in to territory where Tonali is seen as the answer and all will be well when he starts, but don’t forget that before he was banned last year people wanted Longstaff to start ahead of Tonali to give better balance, now Longstaff is being described as Championship standard and Tonali is the saviour. IMO it is beginning to feel more like the system is the problem rather than the players, given Howe has shuffled his midfield in each game and we’ve still looked poor.

Even a point against City in the next game would be a boost to confidence. It doesn’t feel like a bad time to play City – playing on the break/counter with little expectations of possession fits where Newcastle are at the moment. A narrow loss can be taken in stride, a shellacking at home wouldn’t be a surprise nor would it make Howe’s position immediately insecure, BUT failure to then get points against Everton (A) and Brighton (H), before really tough games against Chelsea and Arsenal, could mean he’s under huge pressure before Bonfire Night.
James, Leeds

Barclaysmen
Danny Welbeck, Ross Barkley, Adam Lallana all fresh new entries into the winners and losers this week? Should we expect a tiktok video with MGMT playing in the background? The Barclays Strikes Back?
Neil Raines

Redemption
“One of the most predictable reactions from the most insecure, immature and self-centred support base in the country.“

Nick with astounding insight accurately describing most of the football fans I have ever met, including myself until about 10 years ago. Football fans are like the inmates at Shawshank, everyone of them innocent but fucked by the law or refs in their case.
Paul Rhodes, not an Arsenal fan