Liverpool’s journey in Klopp’s final season means more than the destination…

The Mailbox leads with a Liverpool fan who isn’t fussed if their season has already peaked. Also: plenty on the Ten Hag-Arteta comparisons; Bruno Fernandes; and Paul Pogba…

Send your views to theeditor@football365.com…

No one does it quite like Liverpool
Is the destination more important than the journey? It’s great to win trophies, but generally, these wins happen in a particular time and place, and whilst it is great to get that fix, it is experienced in a very narrow space of time. The journey – the ups and the downs, the drama, the unpredictable flow – I think that is what counts more in football. And as only a small proportion of clubs get silverware, I think that there is something in this. If supporting a team was only about what that team wins, well, we wouldn’t stick by our clubs through thick and thin, would we? Who would support Spurs?

The best thing about Klopp’s tenure hasn’t been the silverware (lovely as it has been) but the amazing journey, a journey that has got even more amazing in the last few days, with all the lovely stuff with the youngsters coming through. Unless you are an ABL, you must have enjoyed seeing them experience these joys. And of course, if you are an ABL, then it would have really stuck in your craw, but even then, this is a part of the journey, one that will make Liverpool’s probable failure this season even sweeter.

Chelsea probably should have won on the balance of play on Sunday. Southampton certainly should have gone in front and had they done so, could well have kicked on. Both games could have been lost and then Liverpool would be under huge pressure. As it is, we are where we are, watching literal children step up and help us win games that we probably shouldn’t be winning.

There are many huge games coming up – two at OT, one at Goodison, and City at home, with plenty more banana skins along the way – and at some point, Liverpool are likely to fall short. In fact, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Sunday ends up being the peak of their season. And should this be the case, as Liverpool drop away and as the quadruple becomes a distant dream, all the ABLs will make merry, and that’s okay, that’s how it works, and will prove that Liverpool are the perfect football team/club because they give to fans and anti-fans in equal measure.

I don’t mind what happens, as much as I want to pick up another trophy (or two. Or three), it’s been a privilege just being along for the ride. And I am not sure any club does all this quite like Liverpool. It won’t always be like this – we could have many ordinary, run of the mill (or even worse) years after Jurgen has gone, but right now, and for several years, the Liverpool fan experience has been just remarkable.
Mat (kisses all)

 

This means more to everyone else
I think Lewis, Busby Way was spot on when he remarked that the “This Means More” is a marketing slogan that one can hold a mirror up against. The thing is, considering rival fans continue to have such a visceral reaction to a now-six year old marketing slogan that went largely unnoticed by Liverpool fans themselves, who would have long forgotten about it were it not for rival fans continuously bringing it up… I’m not sure Liverpool fans are the ones it holds a mirror up to. Taking it seriously/literally and complaining about it has always come across as rather insecure, as if the existence of this marketing slogan has been taken as a personal affront.

By all means take the p*ss out of it, it is/was a ridiculous one, but I think attempting to stretch it into a serious observation about Liverpool fans doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, when you consider the amount of attention the slogan receives from each respective set of fans.
Oliver Dziggel, Geneva Switzerland

 

The drugs don’t work
How lazy must you be to be on performance enhancing drugs and have the output of Paul Pogba. I’d ask for a refund.
Fent, Belfast

Read more: Pogba’s career ends with the saddest chapter as ex-Man Utd star was a product of his environment

 

Defending Pogba
I have been thinking about this a lot recently and now seems like the perfect time to mail about it. About seven or eight years ago I remember reading on this website something along the following lines regarding Messi and Ronaldo, “we need to enjoy these two generational footballers while we can as they cant go on forever” think we all agree with that but they lasted a bit longer than expected. The piece finished off with a throwaway comment about Griezmann and Pogba being the the best players in the world in five years time. Mad to think that was a perfectly reasonable claim to make at the time, now in hindsight both were great on occasion but the best in the world was never in the equation.

Then Kylian Mbappe showed up and we all changed our minds pretty quickly anyway. It’s sad to see Pogba’s downfall he took a lot of undeserved hate from media and fans alike he is obviously an extremely talented footballer he just hasn’t been able to make it click.

I imagine he would give all the money in the world to go back and stay at Juve and maybe wait for that Zidane Madrid team to flutter their eyelashes at him, he could have flourished in that dominant rampaging team, he made the wrong decision joining united and never consistently recaptured the form he showed during his first Juve stint.

At least Griezmann has had what can only be described as a hugely successful career (we will pretend Barcelona didn’t happen).

Hopefully the appeal can bring down the ridiculously long ban, even two years would have been long but at least more reasonable than basically forcing his retirement from the top level it seems very harsh (does Souness have friends in high places?) You would wonder would the ban be anywhere near as long if say it was Kevin De Bruyne or Jude Bellingham who had tested positive?

Four years is double what Papu Gomez received for failing a drug test, four times the twelve month ban given to Andre Onana for failing a drugs test and he only served nine. While Luis Suarez was only banned for four months for biting Giorgio Chiellini his second time to bite a player in as many years after getting 10 games banned for biting Ivanovic the year before. Forcing him into retirement isn’t right it feels like overkill.
Aaron CFC Ireland

 

An alternative view
A player fueled by pure hype rather than actual consistent talent.

A player who could be world class 1 in 20 games

A player who can play well only when surrounded by a world class mid, attack and defense.

The worst buy United ever made

The worst rebuy Juve ever made

Zero effort or heart in the player. His world revolves only around him and his money.

So, to conclude, sucks that career that was petering out anyways, is now finished due to no doubt his own stupidity, which he is blessed in abundance with. Zero sympathy for a man who was given everything and wasted it all. More than/ anything, he is the symbol of everything wrong at United when he came, and I cannot forget that. He did NOTHING. Useless as a plank of wood.
Aman

 

Ten Hag’s Arteta defence
It’s so interesting to me when rival fans cite Arteta’s tenure as ‘the reason’ that their club should stick with their manager. Forever and a day, he will be ‘the man who finished 8th twice’ despite actually ‘guiding’ the club to eighth, having picked them up from their lowest position that first half season, when he took over. I can tell you now, I don’t know of any other manager’s finishing position from their first half-season as well as I know Mikel’s.

The other really key bits of info people forget are a) this is still his first managerial job, and b) Covid.

So when the club decided to go against the grain and choose Arteta (over Ancelotti, who knows?), they did so knowing what they were getting themselves into. There was definitely an acceptance that, in order to completely and properly rebuild post-Wenger, we needed to move on in a completely new direction and understand that this was a long-term project, not an Emery style sticking plaster over an average and ageing squad.

Then three months into being an actual football manager, a global pandemic struck. Somehow, we got an FA Cup out of it, beating far superior City and Chelsea sides along the way. That earnt Arteta credit, it’s just a shame nobody was there to see it in the flesh.

But it also meant he got an easier ride the following autumn/winter, when things turned a bit ugly. On the pitch, we were horrible – you’ve all seen the famous post of all the defeats, with a sole victory at United sandwiched in. In fact, it was worse than that, winning just four of our first 14. He was a rookie, but this was awful, and I think more pressure would’ve been on him had fans been in the stadium. That, in some ways, saved him from harsher scrutiny, and by the time fans were back, we’d turned a bit of a corner.

All told, those first two years of his tenure were probably, at board level, almost written off. Here we had a rookie, who’d navigated the team through the strangest, sh*test year of football any of us can remember, with no prior experience of even managing under normal circumstances, and he’d shown shoots of potential, particularly with the cup win.

By summer 2021, when normality kicked back in, he started to mould the team to his vision. Ramsdale, White, Smith Rowe, Saka, Odegaard. There was evidence of the principles he was trying to instil. Soon the high earners and trouble makers were gone – this is what the board had signed up for, they just had to wait through the unprecedented circumstances he had to wade through first. Finishing fifth was disappointing, but only because of where we’d come from. This was his first ‘proper’ season, in a way.

These are not or were not the circumstances for Ten Haag or Pochettino. ETH arrived having watched his scintillating Ajax side play Real Madrid off the park at the Bernabeu. He’d won titles, he had a playing style and a vision. The fans expected success. Pochettino returned to England best-known for actually making Tottenham legit good for the first time in our lifetimes. They challenged, the players loved him. The fans expected success.

Arsenal fans hoped for success, but didn’t expect it. We’d got used to a lack of it under Wenger (sadly); Arteta instead offered a new dawn after a long time being used to the same old thing. If there was success along the way, great, but when he was appointed it was just exciting, and kind of remained that way until he could properly do the job he was asked to.

Now, there is expectancy. He has to win things. If not this year, definitely next – or Arsenal are really no better than Pochettino’s Spurs.

His leash won’t last forever, but there are very key reasons as to why he’s had one in the first place. I’m not sure either ETH or Pochettino can point to similar extenuating circumstances as reasons to keep their jobs.
Joe, AFC, East Sussex

 

… So we’re back to the comparisons between ten Hag and Arteta. The loyalty Arsenal showed to Arteta has been a huge crutch that many managers have leaned on in the last 2 years, as if simply loyalty and patience alone will mean they can do what Arteta has done with Arsenal. Fans of ten Hag can and do point to trophies won, win percentage, points totals etc but there are much more ingrained reasons why so many have their doubt about ten Hag.

Even if you’re not an Arsenal fan go back and watch Arteta’s first interview when he was appointed.
To paraphrase the key parts:
“I want to have passion, be dominant, be aggressive, I want to play in the opponents territory, I want the ball…as well create the right culture around the club and an environment where everyone respects each other, a humility and people to be accountable for what we want to achieve. The direction will be very clear and won’t be negotiable, the players need to be on board with the right attitude, passion and commitment….i will give the players the direction, the structure and the tools to solve the situation they’re in. I have to tell them what will happen, then it has to happen, and if I do that they will believe me and follow me. The opponent has to have fear coming to the Emirates.”

It is so clear and he’s built it bit by bit without wavering from the plan. Pep and Klopp were the same, you understood from day 1 what they wanted and it was believable but they needed time to get that plan across. Arteta earned the loyalty because he’s so convincing and it was obvious that his ideas were elite and he just didn’t have the players yet. After 18 months at Arsenal Arteta had only been able to buy Cedric, Mari, Gabriel and Partey for the first team £70m spend. Indy the same time Ten Hag has spent £400m on 9 permanent players and a lot of loan signings and no one is sure whether Man U are any better or what the style is….the recruitment has been beyond dodgy and the list of players ten Hag has genuinely improved is pretty limited to a few young players.

Compare as well how the two managers act in their media duties, Arteta has from day 1 taken responsibility and taken the blame, he protects the players in public, everything is kept in house, he’s consistent, doesn’t dwell on the past or project too far to the future and doesn’t react to any outside noise. Ten hag has done pretty much the opposite of all those things including most recently getting upset at Carragher’s dissection of his teams weak defence v Fulham, and even calling out Fulham’s social media account for laughing at Bruno faking an injury. There is also his constant insistence that Garnacho was onside v Arsenal. Now people may point to Arteta’s ‘disgrace’ outburst after the Newcastle game but in 4 years he’s been at Arsenal he’s rarely blamed anyone else for a result, the message remains clear.

Just to touch on anyone still clinging to the points won and results, I think if you dig deeper and you’re honest about those Man U performances both last season and this there are a lot of games that essentially are in the balance and are have been won by an individual moment from a talented player not from a build up of pressure, of control of dominance. Man U have won just two games by more than a single goal in the league. Man U don’t exert any dominance or control it all seems a bit left to chance.

Arteta was believable and backable from day 1 no matter that players he had. Ten hag just hasn’t shown anything of the sort yet.
Rich, AFC

 

…I don’t really have any view on Ten Hag other than ‘lol’, but I do have a real bone to pick with fans, pundits and media using the ‘patience with Arteta’ as some kind of like for like in situations where a manager is clearly flailing at a massive club and his mates want to ‘give him more time’.

Coming into Arsenal, everyone who spoke with Arteta was blown away, sold 100% on the man. He nearly got the job before Emery, before he had half his preceding experience, because everyone who got in a room with this guy (much like with Guardiola before) was like, “oh man, this dude has it”.

And since then, through various ups and downs, Arteta has constantly ‘had’ it. You speak to players, people in the organisation, whoever, he radiated intelligence, determination, meticulousness to detail, firmness that basically meant the board never wavered on him. All the players he works with, worked with, coaches etc say this guy is brilliant – and it was this, rather than some daft notion of ‘patience’, that kept him at the club.

He has frequently been cited by players who join as the reason they are inspired to come to Arsenal; choose the team over other options. He successfully defenestrated players at the club who were slowly sinking it in malaise and shook everyone up.

So saying X coach needs patience, because Arsenal gave Arteta time and look what happens, is nonsense. Because you’ve got a mug in charge. Because you don’t have Arteta. We do. We have Super Mik Arteta and he knows exactly what we need.
Tom, Walthamstow

 

Furious of Manchester
Following the statement from Andrew Goonerabroad Brown on Wednesday mentioning this may be Ten Haag’s ‘Fergie’ moment following the late winner against Forest, please never compare a bald prick who hasn’t improved anything in 18 months while nearly spending £500 million to a person who didn’t let standards drop for 20 years straight and in the Premier League finished in the Top 2 for 17 seasons. Yes Ferguson did struggle a bit in his first 3-4 years, but you can’t compare I don’t think, look at the amount of resources United have now compared to before, United just can’t make a reasonable decision and allowed Ten Haag to bring in a couple of players too who have been average at best.

The game was hard to watch on Wednesday, and actually turned it off after 60 mins. The quality of football United play is honestly so poor and boring to watch, I would even say under Van Gaal it was possibly more entertaining and at least he made United defensively decent! This United team don’t seem to be good at anything specifically apart from being inconsistent and have a tempo of a sloth at times. Oh and Bruno, look he has been a very good signing, and can’t falter him for the last 4 years in terms of performances, stats and never missing games, but he needs to stop moaning so much on the pitch, its becoming too toxic and childish now.

If United are playing like City or Liverpool and the players, including Bruno, are getting fouled cynically, then yeah fair enough you can have a bit of a moan because of playing genuinely good stuff and this is the only way the opposition can stop you. However, the team are so ignorant and snobby, and Bruno is influencing this by being a little bitch half the time, that the team just look weak mentally. Oh and the team are now heavily relying on a 21 year old striker, who has just signed for the club 7 months ago. Does that sound normal? Could actually ruin his potential this way.

United think the other team shouldn’t get anywhere near them and give them more space to do what they want from the way they play at times. Rashford is especially guilty of this and has no awareness or how to find space, and very curious as to why can’t he play as a number 9 either? Does he not get coached how to play in this position? Perhaps with Rashford, that is due to the environment he has been in the last 5-6 years in the changing room, its finally gotten to him and he wants to leave now. But when you score 25-30 goals in a season, the standards have been set, the opposition players are obviously going to kick you and try and provoke you, he has to rise above it because there is no one else there to do it and has the ability to perform better.

Ratcliffe spoke about making the environment better at United, and in terms of getting off to a starting point. I think it would start off best if Ten Haag left in the summer because he won’t win the FA cup or finish in Top 4 at this rate and he thinks United is Ajax, the man has very little charisma and I wouldn’t say he is a bad leader, but tactically he is very poor.
Rami, Manchester

 

Bruno shouldn’t be guaranteed a start
It’s clear to everyone that Bruno Fernandes is a talented footballer. I’m a Liverpool fan and in his first season I was genuinely worried that Man U had grabbed such a top class player. However I don’t think anyone can argue that after that, once he had settled in and was given the captaincy, his petulance has taken centre stage. That’s why I agree with others that he shouldn’t be captain, or even guaranteed a starting place in big games.

During one of the Covid behind closed doors matches I recall hearing him scream SO LOUDLY during a LFC – MUFC match, after the merest connection with what appeared to be his shin pad. His play acting and exaggeration of contact is contemptable. Although a small mount of kudos is due for not rolling around when Felipe placed his hand on his neck last night.

And he’s constantly in the referee’s ear. Jordan ‘show me the money’ Henderson was heading in that direction prior to leaving Liverpool. He was massively overegging contact and shouting at refs after every decision, even those for Liverpool. But to me he was doing so to mask his decline in influence. Bruno seems to be doing that well ahead of schedule! His fellow countryman Bernardo Silva seems to have cut that out of his game.

When people and journalists denounce Marcus Rashford for his work rate or lack of, it’s clear he isn’t motivated on the pitch. He’s doing enough in training to warrant a place, so what goes wrong? Could it be his captain? Bruno must be horrible to play against, but he’s probably horrible to play with too. He seems so, so negative. I normally want teams to have injuries to their best players ahead of playing Liverpool. I and many others will have mental voodoo dolls of KDB, Foden and Haaland at the ready ahead of the City game. However I’m never in the slightest bit worried that Fernandes will play us.

One final point. It’s one thing to praise Fernandes for running more than anyone. But even in his final, zero influence, knockings at Arsenal, Mesut Ozil was still often the player on the pitch who had covered the most ground.

Yours,
Michael Gibson, LFC

 

Reality check
Calvino, it’s not a media narrative that Man United are doing badly. They are doing badly. Some facts:
Man United are 6th.
They are 5 points ahead of a West Ham team where fans are desperate for the manager to be sacked.
They are 16 points behind a Liverpool team that finished below them last year and have rebuilt their entire midfield.
They are 7 points behind an Aston Villa team who, within Ten Hag’s time at United, have been in the relegation zone.
They are 3 points behind, and have played a game more, than a Spurs team who finished 8th last year and just appointed a new manager.
They have a goal difference of 0
They have scored 36 goals in 26 games, less than 1.5 a game. They’ve scored one more goal than Luton.
They finished bottom of a Champions League group that they should have qualified from easily.
They lost at home 3-0 to Bournmouth, lost at home to Fulham and have been beaten by Nottingham Forest.

This, despite spending around £400m in the space of 2 seasons. This is not media spinning narrative. They are having a terrible season. They are doing worse this year than last year. Now, I couldn’t care less if he stays or goes, but those are the facts.
Mike, LFC, Dubai

 

… Hey Calvinho. I don’t need the media or statistics to tell me Utd are sh*t. I’ve got eyes.
Col

 

​View from behind enemy lines
So it looks like the Klopp farewell tour will swing past Old Trafford a couple of times before he heads off into the sunset.

What a great quarter-final that is set up to be – United will need to more on the front foot than we witnessed in their commendable performance at Anfield earlier in the season and this should make for a more entertaining outcome for the neutral to digest. We’ll see.

I wanted to give some thoughts from a Liverpool fans perspective on some of the storylines doing the rounds in the media / forums regarding Man U.

I sincerely hope that people read this as an honest assessment and in no way designed to ‘poke the bear’. Far too much of the narrative I see on this forum and others from people saying they are true Liverpool or Man U fans is clearly designed to be polarising / inflammatory when discussing the other side, which unfortunately smothers what I see as the more balanced, honest, valued debate.

Both sets of fans are truly fortunate to be supporting teams rightfully classed of giants of the English game. My allegiance started back in 1977 as I was taken to Anfield on my 6th birthday to see Kevin Keegan bag 2 goals against Arsenal – the dye was cast from that point on.

Both sets of fans are loyal and passionate and have witnessed the rollercoaster ride of success for their respective teams overlap with the each other. At the current moment it feels that Liverpool are slightly higher on their rollercoaster than Man U, but the key question is ‘who is climbing and who is going downhill ?’.

To me, Liverpool appear to be on a slight upslope – clear playing style identity throughout the club, bringing a level of success whilst also allowing the green shoots of new players to develop in the bright sunlight. The key question is, are we heading for a dip when the current driver of the train steps off at the end of the season ?

When I have asked myself the same question about Man U, I feel I am being pulled in slightly different directions.

Firstly, the clear positive – I am genuinely pleased for your club that the dark cloud of the Glazer’s ownership appears to be on the path to lifting (leveraged debt finance deals bleed clubs dry, something we saw all too clearly with Hicks and Gillett at Liverpool). I am pleased it’s a UK ownership and someone who feels passionately about your club – better that than heading down the somewhat soulless road of mega-rich state ownership that we see in place just down the road from Old Trafford.

Initial signs are that he (JR) has his head screwed on and recognises that having a stronger, clearer structure surrounding the first team / management is vitally important (director of football / CEO etc ..). United appear to have been somewhat rudderless in that regard for some time.

But the culture needs to change (around the first team) and it still feels like some serious pruning is required to help achieve that, a core question being does that include ETH ?

There were signs when he first came in of him taking a stronger stance in terms of making it ‘his team’ – eg how he dealt with Ronaldo situation (positive) and also some of the initial recruitment of familiar faces (with mixed results), but are things stagnating at the moment in that regard ? My perception is that the Man U first team squad aren’t all pulling in the same direction and further dressing room changes are needed to correct that – results have been mixed this year, bolstered by moments of individual brilliance covering up what may have been seen as a less than dominant display. That only adds fuel to the narrative that some are playing as individuals rather than a true collective – success is not built on such a platform.

There are certain tactical aspects where I look critically on ETH – a times the team is so stretched across the pitch without an effective counter press, resulting in a higher volume of chances against. That can be better coached I feel.

But is replacing him necessary ? .. I have no certainty in my answer to that question.

What I do know for certain is that I would be more worried as a rival fan if that replacement was someone like De Zerbi – clearly a fantastic coach, who trusts youth development and who gives off the image of not putting up with other people’s sh*t …… a winning combination I feel.

Many battles are won by being prepared to do what your enemy wants you to do the least.

Fernandes is clearly a great player – the stats don’t lie.

What also doesn’t lie is the clear video evidence of exaggerated diving, feigning of injury and general negative body language that we see all too frequently from him.

He’s your captain .. he is meant to represent the best example of what you feel you are as a team / club.

I’m not saying that he has to be like Dwight Yorke, joyous as it was to see such a great player playing the game with a genuine smile, but surely a better example needs to be set by Bruno for the younger players coming through.

Keep the player, but he shouldn’t wear the armband (I’d give that to Shaw from what I see).

Of course I want to see Liverpool come out victorious in our next 2 visits to Old Trafford, but if we are deserving/fortunate (delete as appropriate) to do so, I won’t be immediately giving my Man U friends too hard a time about it or trolling others for a reaction …… I’d want Man U fans to know that if they were on fire, I would pi$$ on them, as that is what true friends are for !!

(.. and I was doing so well to build little bridges .. and then I’ve gone and kicked it down .. doh !)

If published, I’d be interested to hear Man U fans thoughts on all this …. + who do your fear Liverpool appointing as next manager the most ?

Onwards & Upwards,
Sparky, LFC

Silly squad numbers
This whole squad numbers thing has gotten rather silly hasn’t it?

Don’t recall Thierry Henry (14) or Roy Keane (16) being back-ups. Or David Beckham (23) toiling away on the fringes of Real Madrid. Declan Rice (41) and Trent Alexander Arnold (66) are first name on the team sheet types. And, if I recall correctly, the real Ronaldo sported a 99 on his back (the number not the ice cream) for Milan at one stage.

Maybe just enjoy a cup win without resorting to excel spreadsheets to try to prove some spurious, ultimately irrelevant point.
Conor Malone (#427, 16th choice keeper) Donegal.