Man City FFP: ‘No argument against’ expulsion and ‘stripping PL titles’ with Juventus repeat demanded

The Mailbox claims there is ‘no argument against’ relegation and stripping of Premier League titles if Man City are found guilty of breaching FFP rules.

Send your thoughts to theeditor@football365.com…

What to do with Manchester City?
I like Sparky’s very reasonable suggestion and discussion of the possible impacts of different actions should City be found guilty of what they’re obviously guilty.

However, there is one thing that’s missing from any of them. Meaningful punishment. And consistency, for those who were punished for far less significant rule breaking.

First, while I agree that giving clubs titles doesn’t really work, because it doesn’t feel earned, and the moment of joy is gone. There is no pleasure in it. But – in the case of guilt – City also don’t deserve to have the titles against their name. Better that they’re asterisked and removed, than kept illegitimately.

Second, as said, financial punishment is meaningless to the club – unless it’s given to the clubs affected most. But working that out would be a Post Office saga.

Third, relegation to championship doesn’t work. As said, it punishes the hard working clubs there. So, what’s the option? Kick them down to the bottom rung of the league pyramid. If they broke the rules for multiple years, that’s what should happen. It happened to Rangers, it happened to Juventus. Why not to City?

So, it results in a likely fire sale of players and staff. Ok? That’s as it should be. Many of those players have been complicit anyway by taking those disguised payments. It’s a punishment on the good fans – yes, both of them – who saw their club be picked up as a oil nation’s play thing and political pawn, and that’s very harsh. But there are many clubs down the leagues who have seen bad owners come in and mess things up. They aren’t unique except to the degree of the screw up (and even then Leeds and Sunderland fans might have a word to say).

Sadly, we know that none of this will happen, because while the league can process small infractions, it cannot handle something as big as this and lacks the requisit balls to take the action. Same as with the Spanish league and Barcelona paying referees for decades.

What those responsible need to consider, should guilt be proven – it has, after all, already been found – is the impact of NOT acting. All those clubs punished with big points deductions and fines relative to the breach should challenge those rulings. The league will forever lose any remaining glitter as a fair and just league. Other clubs will realise that if you’re going to cheat, you’d better cheat really big. And City will keep on spending money they don’t legitimately have (and by that I mean sponsorship deals that bear no relation to their following and audience) to dominate, with other clubs bound to follow.

The league is at a turning point. What they choose to do next will reverberate for decades to come.

Time to put the big boy pants on.
Badwolf

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In the event that they are found guilty I think we should just do what they do in Italy.

Despite it’s reputation Italy is very proactive about cheating. Not only do they look for cheaters, and catch cheaters they do so publicly and they punish them as harshly as possible. They’re pretty much the only country that do, it’s baffling why they have a rep for being a league of cheaters when they’re the only one who really punishes cheaters. I don’t for a second think our league is the only clean one, I think our league just helps out when it comes to hiding it because of the damage it would cause to the brand.

So with that context when italian fa catches cheaters you get relegated and you get your titles stripped – not it’s not awarded to anyone else. I can’t see any argument against that.

Personally I actually don’t see the issue with awarding the second placed team because regardless of the top team cheating the second place team still earned it and had the top team not been cheating second would be first. But I get that’s unpalatable for many and even though it would only be righting a wrong I wouldn’t celebrate it. Stripping city and not awarding it to second seems like a middle ground most people can agree with.

I don’t see why a cheater should be able to point to a history book and say they won when they didn’t as long as they take whatever slap on the wrists they get.

However I think this is extremely unlikely , like their uefa case I think city are hoping to delay until the government regulator comes in and then the Abu Dhabi government will just use their influence on our government to escape or dramatically lessen punishment. Assuming that doesn’t happen perhaps a punishment which is suits all parties would be a fine but a significant one.

A £3bn fine which is then redistributed amongst the teams in all the leagues might be beneficial to everyone while also making cities finances extremely difficult for a few years. It also sends the message to other teams they can’t fuck about.

What do others think?
Lee

What part does the Premier League play in all of this?
Lost in all of the 115 (or is it 130?) FFP issues is the EPL’s part in all of this. When ordinary people or companies fail to open up their books for audit when the government comes calling, we are all automatically found guilty and a fine assessed by the government according to what they feel the damages should be.

How is it that ManCity got away with not opening their account books for 10 years to evade any penalties?

A simple change in the rules in the EPL that mirror those of governments i.e. you don’t show us your books you are automatically found guilty, would solve the ManCity issues going forward. I’ve seen no one talking about this including the EPL in closing this loophole.

It seems the EPL doesn’t have the stomach to actually hold anyone accountable, in essence making it a voluntary act to comply with FFP.

The result of that failure of judgment is millions in unnecessary legal fees.

The EPL needs a shake up.
Wolfgang

He loves me, he loves me not…
For what it’s worth, I loved and still love Klopp. Just as I loved Shankley. You can’t ignore how the two managers, ‘bigger than life’ characters, almost a half a century apart, revitalized Liverpool’s fortunes.

But like Shankly, we as fans, and the club, had to move on. In Shankley’s case we had the dourer personality of Paisley. Nowhere near as charismatic as Shankley but a much better tactician, who ended up bringing even more trophies into the Liverpool cabinet and cementing their status as a big club. (And least Klopp recognised he would have to move on, unlike Shankley – who kept turning up to training and eventually had to be asked not to come back – so hopefully we will see him at Anfield for a game in the future.)

We can only hope that we see a bit of Deja Vu, with Slot able to replicate what Paisley did. So far, it appears Slot is the arch tactician, setting the team up week by week depending on opponents, good substitutions, handling the player workload, reducing intensity for success over the long run (Liverpool did unexpectedly well last year, but appeared to run out of gas in the last quarter.)

Being impressed by what Slot has done and appreciating his tactical nous – as demanded by Garey Vance – does not erase the love for Klopp – something Slot still has a long way to go to gain from fans. But at least he is on the right course.

But my point regarding the manager of the month award was to question whether it was his low key demeanour that meant he was overlooked – especially given he has beaten both MoM winners? Nothing more. But in United’s current position it’s clear that they have to find ways to attack any happiness other fans have towards their team – belittling it in any way. “You like Slot, must mean you hate Klopp”, just seems to be scraping the barrel.
Paul McDevitt

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I speak on behalf of all Liverpool fans when I say that Arne Slot is the messiah and Liverpool will definitely will the league.
Mike, LFC, Dubai (P.S I know I probably shouldn’t have to say that was a joke, but given some of the entries that come into the mailbox, better safe than sorry.)

New Chosen One…
Fabian Hurzeler is the new Alex Ferguson.
Jay B, CFC

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Transfer window
I think it’s unfair that the transfer window is only open twice a year. Man City should petition the FA, UEFA, FIFA, UN to have it open throughout the year so that he can replace the entire team as he wants, when he wants. In fact, this rule was created to discriminate Man City and prevent them from success on and off the pitch.
Shivam, MUFC (serious, maybe not, yes we are still sh*t)

‘Bot’ responds…
My take on fake F365 contributors was meant to express how unlikely it is for anyone to take up a dummy identity because natural human inclination towards football schadenfreude is simply too strong for most anyone to resist, as we simply wouldn’t be able to sustain such degrees of bullshit. I’m one of the few who openly admits (or possibly leans into) football schadenfreude, try as I might not to. Still, I’m surprised my take caused someone to go further the other way, convinced even more so now I might be a bot or a dummy account.

Really though, had I never signed off with “Los Angeles” from the outset, it wouldn’t have ever been at issue. Many see “LA” and automatically reverse engineer ways to discredit any football observations simply because those thoughts might originate abroad. But you don’t know where I was born, my citizenship, where my family or bloodlines reside, what passport (or passports) I hold, how mobile I may or may not be on the globe one day to the next. And you might not know if I’ve supported Liverpool since the days of Beardsley or Barnes (before the former went sideways) or if I’m a daytripping plastic twelve year old who’s just stanning Mo Salah, spouting off here having only watched a highlights reel. You’d never know if I’d held season tickets at Anfield before or indeed whether LA is in fact only a family favorite summering vacation address.

It actually speaks more to xenophobia and embodies an ignorant, Brexit-like animosity to categorically judge anyone or anything simply by geography. I was in London nearly five years ago now when the country exited the EU and it’s been an island, twice over, since that day. How apt. If you’ve properly seen most of what I’ve written to this mailbox, you’ll see it’s usually one of two things: it’s either reasonable and objective (often to the point of self-deprecating re Liverpool), otherwise it’s in the vein of shithousery or banter, all good natured, nothing too serious. On the flip though, you don’t know all those Manc supporters signing off as “so and so from Busby Way” aren’t actually living in their mother’s basements somewhere in the Philippines and care more about the local badminton, do you.

I went back and re-read my last entry, thought about it, and came to a realization the bulk of my (footballing) ill will has mainly been reserved for three clubs: Man Utd (obvious as to why), Everton (ditto), and Tottenham (maybe less obvious as to why). Man Utd and Everton are traditional rivals, both of whom have spent loads and done very little, going on decades now. That explains itself. If there were anything to reflect on, I suppose it might be why it is I feel compelled to neg on Spurs.

The easy conclusion is that everyone craps on Spurs; by any metric they’re undeniably the most ridiculed, least serious football club in history, in the world, full stop. But for me it only started years ago when I began paying closer attention to them (for reasons too lengthy to explain here) and it occurred to me then as it does now, that Tottenham are a paper tiger of a football club, yet a club constantly flexing at every opportunity. It just never sat quite right, and it plainly does not for so many others as well. But having said all this, true ire should be held for Man Utd and Everton only; Spurs don’t deserve the hate, at least not from me, and not as a Liverpool supporter anyway. To waste time hating on Spurs almost elevates their status when it feels more like bullying the shortest lad in PE class… when they’re not even in the same class, PE or otherwise.

Such as it is, if results go their way The Tottenham could go third tomorrow. THIRD !!! But if Spurs finish the season third, I’ll program a bot to pen a mailbox entry next year as I know I wouldn’t be able to find the words.
Eric, Los Angeles CA (Newsflash: From any country, the view of the prem table is the same and will not change for a fortnight at least, with the league leaders five ahead. Enjoy.)

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Post-war Tottenham XI
GK Pat Jennings (1970s) – Jennings was a titan in goal for Spurs, spending 13 seasons with the club and clocking up well over 400 appearances. Among older fans it still rankles that he was sold to Arsenal, where he was still excellent for another several years.

LB Destiny Udogie (2020s) – It’s not that there’s slim pickings from the current squad, but Son joined in 2015 and left back is always tricky so… A fiercely competitive defender with an impressive engine and burgeoning game intelligence, our one worry about him is that injuries and slightly shonky squad management over the last few seasons means that he’s playing too much this season.

CB Ledley King (2000s) – Famously had one knee, although by the end even that may have been generous. A one club player, our captain as we won the League Cup in 2008, a fabulously elegant defender and both us and England were robbed of seeing a fully-fit King anchor our defence for years.

CB Gary Mabbutt (1990s) – A stalwart of the Spurs back line for 16 years, captain for much of that time, led us to our last FA Cup, played through diabetes and, most importantly, simply the nicest and most decent man in football. We love him, and can never say enough good things about him.

RB Bill Nicholson (1940s) – Apparently played centre back and right half for Spurs, so I’m sure with his intelligence he’d fit well into the right back role that didn’t really exist when he was a player but certainly did by the time he became our greatest ever manager, securing all manner of trophies during his time in charge.

LW Gareth Bale (2010s) – If there’s ever been a more thrilling sight in the Premier League than Bale getting the ball on the left wing, rampaging through a slew of terrified defenders and slamming the ball into the opposition net, I’ve not seen it. A perfect trinity of power, pace and technique, Bale almost single-handedly carried Spurs at times, certainly in his final season when he took us to the bring of CL qualification before leaving for a world record fee which of course we spent very intelligently.

CM Steve Perryman (1970s) – Over 800 appearances for Spurs spanning 17 seasons as we cemented our reputation as a cup-winning side. Perryman is Mr Tottenham, and with him in the team we lifted 2 FA cups, 2 League Cups and 2 UEFA Cups.

CM Glenn Hoddle (1980s) – His national Hall of Fame induction recognised his ” sublime balance and close control, unrivalled passing and vision and extraordinary shooting ability, both from open play and set piece”. Yep.

RW Danny Blanchflower (1950s) Sorry, Sonny, but I had to include the captain who inspired us to our last league title, the first league and cup double in the professional era of English football and who scored as we became the first English team to win a European trophy. Arguably our greatest ever footballer, he lead the team through our absolute peak in the early 60s. And it may sound trite and worthy of mockery when Spurs get all misty-eyed saying “the game is about glory” but this man said it first, and he ought to know.

ST Jimmy Greaves (1960s) -The highest scoring player in the English football league, a World Cup winner, your dad’s favourite footballer and our all-time top scorer until…

ST Harry Kane (2010s) – …this guy came along and turned us into one of the most deadly teams in the country for a few years, and gave us a puncher’s chance for several years either side. The Man City thing left a bad taste in many fans’ mouths, but when he was on the pitch he was a joy to watch, scoring tap ins, penalties, howitzers and goals of the most sumptuous skill for close to a decade with us. Also, and this can’t be stressed enough, scored an absolute bucketload of goals against Arsenal.

No room, alas, for Clemence or Gascoigne, Jones or Son, Waddle or Brown, Ardiles, Klinsmann, Sheringham, Modric… We’ve had some really, really great players down the years!
Michael C

Best XI challenge
Poor old Garey has taken quite a beating this week, so let me pile on by accepting his best X1 challenge. I have cheated a little as I’ve gone back to the 30’s and missed the 40’s out.

My team beats Garey’s hands down as there’s no way his defence doesn’t concede at least 5 at Old Trafford and maybe 8 at Anfield! In a 4-3-3

Scott (30)

TAA (20)
Hughes (Laurie) (50)
VVD (20)
Byrne (60)

Gerrard (00)
Souness (80)
Barnes (90)

Dalglish (70)
Rush (80)
Suarez (10)

So good I couldn’t fit Salah, Hunt or Liddell in, 3 of our top 5 all time goalscorers!
Howard (no yikes in my team) Jones