Are City becoming just like Man Utd? Fred vs KDB and more…
Keep your mails on Man Utd vs Man City and anything else coming to theeditor@football365.com.
The derby we can all forget
As derbies go, that was totally forgettable.
I’ve said before that I do actually like City, for what they have done for that part of Manchester alone should be commended. I even liked their style of play but I could never really find any sort of likable compassion for Pep. I just don’t like the bloke and from what I have seen over the last year, is it time that we can call Pep a failure at City? Is he nothing more than a cheque book manager who has been very, very lucky in his career?
He’s never actually rebuilt teams as he’s never been there long enough and never had too. He’s actually never even built his own team and been successful, he’s always inherited a start studded squad. Being gifted such a star studded squad at Barcelona that became one of the best sides we have seen. Not being funny but plenty of other managers could have quite easily have won with that side. He then went off to Bayern Munich after a little holiday in New York, again a side that invariably walk the league and then off to City who were reigning champions when he arrived. Mancini and Pellegrini had both made City champions and a driving force before he got there.
People talk about Ferguson being a failure in Europe considering the number of times they were in the competition, but Utd were handicapped by the foreigners rule to start with. That’s a lame excuse and I’m sticking with it. Pep has only 2 CL semis since that Barcelona team some 9 years ago.
Looking at Man City now, and City fans will be far better to tell us, but looking at them as an outsider, they now have very few players of the caliber they’ve had in past seasons. Since the great Kompany left and he was great, Pep has failed to replace him. He’s bought and tried several different players, partnerships and they’ve never looked as secure. Touré who I really hated as he was that good, hasn’t been replaced and Pep basically discarded him. Silva was irreplaceable but I see nobody able to control the game anyway near as well as him. Oh hold on, there is Foden, supposed to be quite good but doesn’t have a fancy Spanish sounding name. Aguero who you just cannot refute being up there with the very best we’ve seen in the epl. I know he is still there but it could be injury after injury now because of his age.
They all got old but That’s one heck of a spine of a side that hasn’t been replaced. Well it has but with nowhere near the quality or consistency.
I watched them against Utd and I saw very little threat from anyone. De Bruyne who is a class act, looked fed up and exhausted. Something has happened to Sterling apart from his hair being quite silly and then from what I saw, there was nothing. I really like Sterling as well, but what has happened to him?
They don’t have a striker when Aguero is injured, Jesus is no striker. The keeper has a mistake in him, the defensive partnership, which ever Pep chooses, isn’t solid enough and midfield is lacking something, like a bit of Silva magic. Yes, they’ll batter a few teams this season, but they’ll also lose a few to teams you expect them to beat. All those players mentioned were not Pep signings. So has he signed anyone who has been a long term improvement and not just a 1 season wonder?
I remember City teams hunting you down, starting at 100mph and it was like that until they eased off a bit at 4-0 up. Against Utd, they were slow, they didn’t get at it for the entire game. If anything has been shown this season, if you pressurise Utd, they’ll crumble. That was possibly one of Utd’s easiest games for the defense this season. A clean sheet says it.
For a Manchester Derby it had no excitement or passion from either side. It wasn’t an edge of your seat kinda thing. Who else after about 10 minutes said it’s got 0-0 written all over it? Opposing players having a little chat and laugh with each other, what’s all that about? If that stadium was full, I doubt either fans would have been happy.
So, I and many others can go on about just how bad Utd are, that City side really, on that performance are in the same boat. From the free scoring goal machine it once was, to having 2 less than Utd so far, sit at this moment 8th and 1 behind Utd, who in case you don’t know, have been woeful.
Can Pep, with real competition build a team to win? This isn’t Spain or Germany where you can cherry pick. That question is still up for debate as he’s never done it before. Yes, he’s bought a load of players, it does though kind of look like it’s all a bit of luck with him. Buys 2 full backs, doesn’t like them so buys 2 more. Kinda like a cave man picking at berries, eventually you’ll pick one that doesn’t kill someone. He hasn’t really got a great track record when it comes to signings.
Will City become just like Utd? That’s too early to say. Since the spine of the Utd team left, nobody has managed to replace it. Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Rooney, Van Der Sar, Giggs. Utd never even replaced Ronaldo (like that was possible) and that started a downward spiral. I have a sneaking feeling that Ferguson knew he couldn’t replicate yet another Utd overhaul, another new team and didn’t want to end up like a Wenger.
I’m not listening to the Pundits who for some reason see Pep as untouchable and I’m not having a go at City as I said, what they have done for the area should be applauded. The season where they won the title on GD was one of the best, most exciting ends and I think football needs that excitement right now. I just can’t take this Pep guy being the savior of football, the best we’ve seen, a revolutionary and all the other nonsense we hear. Sure give Pep 700 million to spend in the summer on 22 new players and he’ll win you something. Where will he go after this contract ends? Juve, PSG?
I give Ole so much stick because imo he really isn’t the right man for the job, he wasn’t even that great when a player, he was good but he was a sub. Lives on the European lunging his leg out which is fine, I would as well. But the “he knows the club” so does the groundsman and canteen staff. Everyone gives Woodward and the owners a lot of abuse saying in particular that Woodward isn’t fit for purpose, buys the wrong players etc etc. Yet fail to see that Woodward is the bloke who gave Ole the job, so if he’s not fit for purpose, how is he fit to choose the manager?
Yet no media attention on Pep who is also failing to deliver. Is he making players better? Or is he simply discarding and buying again? That buying pool is getting smaller and smaller. Is this his worst ever season start? Was a huge % of that team against Utd, his signings? Because if it is, then if #oleout is a thing #pepout won’t be far behind. Is time finally catching up on the great Pep and he’s being found out for being, just a bit average.
Marc the Mancunian
Kevin’s greatness?
Another big game, another performance where Kevin was well below par. I look forward to his KDB’s biggest supporters defend this performance.
This is just further evidence that KDB doesn’t show up when it matters. It’s mighty impressive getting 3+ assists in a 5-0 win against Burnley and it allows him to claim meaningless records but this is why I can’t accept Kevin as the greatest midfielder to have played in a England let alone the best player in the league at present.
Manchester City actually look like a worse team with Kevin in midfield this season and last. When a petro-state bankrolls a team and manager and builds it around one player, you’d expect him to do better than only perform against the fodder of the league. Football365 used to call Luis Suarez a flat track bully in his time at Liverpool, when will questions be raised about Kevin? Can his most ardent supporters explain why he fails to show up in these games and the Champions League?
Sean
Fred vs KDB
There was a moment in the first half where Fred sold Kevin De Bruyne a dummy only to lose control of the ball. For a moment, the ball was behind Fred and there to be challenged. In these fleeting moments, the great players come alive and De Bruyne gathered the ball and charged at the United defence and played an inch perfect pass to….. no wait, hold on… Fred didn’t lose the ball because Kevin was sulking and throwing his hands up in the air while failing to track back.
Another big game. Another example of Kevin De Bruyne failing to turn up.
Jamie, Eire
KDB and his level…
I have to say having read 16 conclusions and some contributions to the mailbox over the last few weeks, I am baffled by Dave Tickner’s assertion that Kevin De Bruyne was playing the game ‘in his head and with his feet on a higher plane and at a faster speed than his colleagues’. This point echoes the sentiment of Daniel Storey who a few weeks ago noted that KDB’s drop in form was no fault of his own. This sort of punditry is unique to Kevin De Bruyne and is quite frankly embarrassing.
When has any other player in the history of the game, who is in bad form been protected like this. Either we now accept that all players who are not delivering are simply playing their own game and are on their own level and speed or we take our heads out of the sand and ask some frankly tough questions about Kevin De Bruyne. If I was to say that Ole was operating in his own speed and level on Tuesday night and was on a higher plane than Julian Nagelsmann, I’d be laughed at. Similarly, if I said that Di Maria or Sanchez were just playing at their own pace in their heads people would say I’m a fool.
Funnily enough, if one dares to criticize Kevin De Bruyne they are also called a fool and scoffed at by more learned contributors and journalists. Kevin did play some delightful through balls in the game. However, he also misplaced a number of passes and failed to deliver again. My favorite was in the 69th minute when he hit a delightful ball to his colleagues that weren’t in the box. This ball was so good that it stayed in play and Torres managed to stop it from going out for a throw. It was nice to see one of his colleagues getting up to Kevin’s speed and keeping his passing statistics nice and high. If I was one of Kevin’s teammates I would maybe be wondering why he is throwing dirty looks and waving his arms instead of influencing the game.
Messi operates at a different level to his colleagues, Ronaldo is the same. As Dave Tickner notes this city side isn’t as good as the previous great team of 2017-2019. Almost every player in the team has seen some criticism bar Kevin. When a great player is operating at a different plane or level to his team mates it should make a team better. Kevin de Bruyne apparently was operating at this level last year when Man City became 17 points worse. He’s leading his team to a new level of average, that a Pep team has never experienced before. If Kevin is not open for actual criticism then football punditry has no credibility or purpose anymore. Phillipe Coutinho was considered a one trick pony who cut in onto his right foot and shot. The same pundits who plámás Kevin De Bruyne would scoff at a player like Coutinho being considered world class and would critique his game with glee. Could one of these pundits explain why a player with Kevin’s talents is unable to influence the biggest games for his club and country.
I look forward to one pundit or journalist writing an article that questions Kevin De Bruyne when he plays poorly instead of implying that it’s his teammates that are the problem. I particularly enjoy the use of stats as evidence that KDB is on another level to all other players in the league, it’s almost as if we should ignore the quality of players he plays with and that he routinely rounds up assists and goals high scoring games against the likes of Burnley. Steven Gerrard had players that weren’t fit for purpose throughout his career and I don’t remember any pundits protecting him like the crown Jewel in Manchester. He was rightly criticized for playing Hollywood balls and being Stevie Me at times.
At the end of the day, Kevin is like Lee Westwood in golf, where Lee used to win minor competitions in weakened fields in the odd season and managed to become world number one, he couldn’t deliver on a major Sunday. Kevin can stat paddle his numbers in meaningless 5,6 or 7 nil wins but he can’t deliver in the champions league or World Cup. The only difference is that this element of Westwood’s game was criticized by pundits whereas the pundits blame the caddy when it comes to Kevin and say he’s operating on a different level to his teammates.
Sean
Mark Twain once said that ‘Its not what you don’t know that gets you in trouble, it’s what you know for sure that just aint so’. This quote appears at the start of The Big Short and I feel that Kevin De Bruye is now too big to fail. We need to apply this logic to Dave Tickner and Football365’s writing on Kevin De Bruyne of late. The mailbox contributions implying that De Bruyne is overrated are the equivalent to outsiders in The Big Short who predicted that the financial markets were ultimately built upon a foundation of hype.
Kevin De Bruyne was poor today. Throughout the game, he misplaced passes and at one point, clearly gave up when Fred outmenouved him on the halfway line. He threw his hands to the sky and stood and watched the game like an entitled player who is not used to playing against teams who play to win and who no longer has the players around him to elevate his performance. Football365 saw something completely different to this reality and blamed his teammates for letting him down.
Somebody at your site needs to look at the idea that Kevin De Bruye has played in one of the greatest teams to ever play the game and has failed to deliver in the biggest games against equal opposition. Today was a must win game against bitter opposition. No show, poor attitude.
Kevin De Bruyne is going to become less and less effective in big games and it is obvious as to why this is the case. Fear of his teammates is no longer there. Storey and Tickner acknowledge this point yet do not connect it to his poor performances in big games against equal opposition.
KDB’s statistics have been artificially propped by playing a team vastly superior to the vast majority of premier league teams. He has benefited from having world class attacking players in front of him and he has benefited from being the focal point for all creative moves made by a team which dominated possession in almost every game he has played. And if you look at the statistics, they are bang average for assists each year. Kevin De Bruyne meets expectations for assists. Nothing more or less. Don’t believe me? Think I am chicken little, go look at his statistics in comparison to every other leading playmaker in every season over the past 20 years, what is his biggest claim to fame? Equalling another player’s record.
Surely somebody at football365 can examine the idea that if fear factor inhibits the ability of teams to play their game, then one Kevin De Bruyne must benefit from this fear.
So now that the world class players around him are in a dip and because teams have figured out how to play against the system which aids their talent, it is only natural that De Bruyne is not as effective. Sure, every now and then, City will click against lowly opposition and he will bag a few assists in a rout, but again, this is not impressive any more. Even Daniel Storey noted in the recent winners and losers that a brace of assists against Fulham is not worthy of ceremony- reality is starting to blend with fantasy and these moments of clarity will become clearer and clearer.
Tickner suggests that KDB will look for a move. Maybe he will. If he does, in three or four years, this website will write a piece on Kevin De Bruyne’s best days being behind him and largely confined to his time at city. And with the benefit of hindsight, journalists who blame his teammates today will accept that it was these players who contributed to his success.
Mike
Respect, Tickers…
How Dave Tickner managed to eke out 16 conclusions from that snoozefest, I have no idea. Respect, man.
Azeez (how did Pickford manage to keep a clean sheet against us yesterday) Nigeria.
Guardiola is ruthless enough to axe them all…
Is Guardiola’s air of invisibility slowly being stopped away. There were times a few years ago when teams just about survived a beat down from Pep’s Man City. I’m now seeing teams go and actually play football against City. The only manager who had ambition to try and play against City was Jurgen Klopp, and his team got proper thrashed the first time around. I think Liverpool lost by 5 goals that time, but Klopp never wavered, kept at it, and Liverpool have gone from strength to strength, to be arguably, the best team in the world at the moment. I saw Frank Lampard’s Chelsea also go toe to toe with Guardiola last year.
I’m glad that Ole also has showed up to the party. In that Manchester derby, I did not feel like any team held the upper hand. In previous iterations of this match, when Guardiola has managed, and Man U won, it almost always was a smash and grab. This match almost felt like Man U were deserved equals to Man City. Mourinho’s philosophy is well documented, exploit the opposition mistakes and he is a winner, but his brand of football is atrocious for both players and fans, and is not sustainable, and in year 3, his football is just unbearable. I now wonder if Pep, while operating on the other side of the spectrum, also has a 3 year time limit. Another thought that crossed my mind was, Pep finished third in his first season, then was thoroughly backed in the second season, which led to his 2 premier league titles, Klopp was also thoroughly backed which has led to this current Liverpool rise.
Chelsea have done the same for Lampard this summer and we see where his team is at the moment on the table. That David Silva/ Bernado Silva switcheroo hasn’t quite worked out, and Fernandinho is no Kompany, and depending on the podcast you listen to, KDB is thinking 3 steps ahead of his teammates and that’s why his ball seem off, or maybe he should just raise his head up and look for the opportunities that present themselves. I do believe in signing the new contract, Pep probably got assurances of some proper backing this summer so they will probably pull away after this summer, probably even the winter, I don’t think Liverpool have the finances to match City, Chelsea could but they inadvertently fall into FFP foul play, that leaves Man U as the one team that has the financial might to challenge Man City.
Solskjaer may have to do the most with the least this season, but I’d urge anybody to tell me of any manager that would win with this Man U side. He has looked capable against the big boys and has on several occasions beat some of the best. The problem I believe is, when a team like Chelsea identify a hole in the right side in attack, they do the sensible thing and purchase Ziyech from Ajax for 40 million, the lunatics running Man U, are told of a hole on the right side of attack and their answer is, to spend the summer chasing a guy priced at 120 million. I don’t think Solskjaer is ever going to be a success at Man U, but I think, it’s better to go down as a manger who tried to play positive football, and I I think he does that to a large extent. I wouldn’t turn in for Tottenham vs Fulham, but I’ll watch Chelsea vs Fulham and Man U vs Fulham, I’m not sure of Arsenal vs Fulham, but I think Arteta is a bit handicapped at the moment, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.
Dave(We will be questioning Klopp in 2 years time, it’s not about the manager),Somewhere.
A lick of paint…
There have been several recent instances (such as the West Ham game on Friday) of penalties being retaken because the goalkeeper has left his line by a matter of millimetres. This pedantic use of VAR is adversely punishing the goalkeeper; to give the ‘keepers a fighting chance, they need to be allowed dive forward in order to gain momentum.
Fortunately, there is an extremely simple solution: double the thickness of the goal line. I’m aware that FIFA and IFAB tend to regularly blend common sense with forward thinking, so I’d expect a practical solution such as the above to be implemented by the end of the season.
Rob S
Chelsea reaction
One of the most frustrating matches of the season for us, throughout the match Everton did not create a whole lot, they turned up with a set system and it worked for them, one mistake from Mendy, which is very rare our goalkeeper makes a mistake which is a nice thing to be saying after the Kepa seasons, and they capitalise with a goal, fair play, it was a penalty, they put it away and that was that.
It would be harsh of me to criticise how we approached the game, but the lack of fit players who can play on the wing, that being Pulisic and Hudson-Odoi, oh and including Ziyech, truly limited our options and with how Everton set up with what someone stated on social media as a “Flat Back 8” it meant we were always going to struggle to create much.
The positives, well Reece James and Mason Mount had solid games, those two are going to be key players for our club for the next decade based on last season and this, which is fantastic, especially seeing two academy players do so well, the negatives, well Kai Havertz and Timo Werner were just anonymous, we know how good Havertz is, we have seen his talent at Leverkusen, it is his first season in a brand new league, with a new club and system so surely things can only get better for the young German, but right now he does look slightly off the pace and to slow to make decisions.
Mikey, CFC (On to Wolves, fingers crossed they don’t suddenly kick into gear against us)
VAR and baked beans…
David Moyes says VAR is making some terrible decisions, and then adds that you would need a microscope to spot Fabiansk’s infraction. A bit like me accusing the Sainsbury’s security guard of stopping me for no reason, and then when he finds the baked beans in my raincoat, insisting it is such a minor crime he should probably pretend it hasn’t happened.
What exactly would fans like VAR to be? The options are:
1) No change: fans complain about every other decision, even when it’s correct, on the ground that it is “tight”.
2) The idiot pundit’s choice – “Be reasonable”: Suddenly the goal-line isn’t a definitive line anymore, the VAR Official has to make a personal judgement about what is reasonable and what isn’t, and all objectivity goes out of the window.
3) A permitted margin: In the same way we could say offside should be “when there’s daylight” (another layman’s favourite), we could set a limit for goal-line infractions – 6cm? 12cm? But guess what? The decision would still come down to fractional decisions, managers would say that there was “barely daylight” or that “12.1cm is barely over the limit”.
4) Keep VAR only for clear and obvious, don’t check every goal: Cue complaints from the other manager when an infraction like Fabianski’s is not picked up.
I have long said the solution is to have a cricket-style system, where the onus is on the TEAMS to appeal against a decision they think is wrong. This would have two huge benefits.
1) It would eliminate all whinging. Players either appeal or shut up. If they notice an obvious foul, they will appeal. If it’s marginal, they won’t risk it, and the game continues and the commentators say “Leeds missed the chance to appeal there”. If teams were limited to one incorrect appeal (“life”) per match, they would be discouraged from making speculative appeals, which to me is a weakness of the cricket system.
2) We could return to the halcyon days of 2018-19, where 99% of goals counted, and putting the ball in the back of the net sparked a cathartic sense of relief, not the current feeling, more reminiscent of “let’s see what the judges think” on Strictly.
Lev
Erling Haaland…
Had to have a little chuckle at some of the naivete on display in your piece on the Manchester clubs’ supposed ongoing interest in Erling Haaland.
You like many others, fail to grasp the deal that Dortmund did. It is a essentially a 3 year rental whereby BVB paid RB Salzburg a release clause well below market (22-25m) plus a 10m sling to Mino, in return for having their own below-market release clause of 65m inserted. The latter two features of the deal clearly put off Woodward. Others can judge whether subsequent performance justified this deal (I think it well and truly does).
But I can guarantee you the next Haaland deal when it happens, will be a like for like with the numbers multiplied by say 2 (buy for 65m, insert release clause of 130m, sling to Mino of 20m). Haaland, his dad and Mino have worked out that they can make a ton more cash along the way by removing the buying club’s ability to make unlimited profit on the subsequent sale. It looks way more like a rental and renders conventional discussion about “being on the radar” irrelevant.
This may also be why the obvious move from one Red Bull club to another (Salzburg to Leipzig) didn’t happen – the Red Bull group could never have been able to make a profit on Haaland of the same scale they were subsequently able to achieve on Werner.
BVB was willing to see the arrangement at face value and suck it up. They’re not complaining. We’ll see who antes up the next time.
Aussie Red (Keano may have butchered Alf Haaland’s knee, but the brain is very much intact)
The manager merry-go-round
Over the last couple of weeks I’ve repeatedly seen many a united fan state that you need to stick by ole because changing the manager all the time won’t help anything and the club needs to be consistent.
In fact it’s repeatedly said by almost everyone that repeatedly changing managers is a recipe for disaster.
I say that’s nonsense. There is a right and a wrong way to do everything. Chelsea are proof of that. No club (except maybe Madrid) chops and changes manager more than Chelsea, yet every single manager since Roman took over has walked away with at least one trophy. If changing managers doesn’t work then how can you explain that?
You might point to money and you’d maybe have a point but as united are proving, you can have money and still fail to achieve your goals. It isn’t money, it helps but that isn’t why they’re successful despite changing managers.
The reason it works for Chelsea is because the club plan for that. They treat managers like any other employee, there’s no leniency because you’re name is (insert name) you succeed or you leave. They also build a team FOR the manager (whoever that manager may be) and then the manager must succeed with the team provided for them, and they’re actually not bad at spending the money at their disposal.
You can chop and change and be successful, you just need to plan for it. Pretty much every other club doesn’t do this and treats the manager as a magic bullet to fix everything. Chelseas more American business model simply treats them as an employee.
Lee
Racism…
I was to start by firstly saying the Webo situation has me torn. In my gut it feels like there is something wrong but the more I look at it, I am really not sure.
The definition of racism is discriminating someone based on race. Was the 4th official doing this? I don’t think so. Here in the US Micah Richards was in the studio talking on this. He didn’t see a whole lot wrong, he felt in an all white lineup being described a large the black presenter or something similar was fine.
If things were flipped and it was an all black room with one white guy, it’s perfectly acceptable to say the white guy. Is it really any different from saying the tall guy or the short one?
I can see both sides of it, but I don’t think he was discriminated against. I do however feel that we should defer to the person who was the victim of the statement and both Webo & Ba were offended by this so perhaps that is the answer.
Stuart (Scotsman in the states) CFC, NJ
