Listen to Fergie: Man Utd must not continue doom cycle by sacking Ten Hag…

It’s another bumper Mailbox, taking in Manchester United’s next move, Newcastle and Saudi’s big win, Kevin Keegan, Jurgen Klopp’s replay talk, and how Spurs should follow Arsene Wenger’s lead.

Get your views in to theeditor@football365.com…

United’s doom cycle
I wrote less than a month ago when United’s name was being muddied and I hoped that I won’t be writing for a while as we would turn a corner with the current run of fixtures but looks like the knives that started coming out after our loss to Brighton are now being sharpened to finish off ETH.

I just want to remind all the United fans (this message is not for the ABU fans), who have sworn to get rid of our latest manager, calling him a fraud to a dictator and everything in between. Don’t you guys remember, we’ve been here before? With Mourinho, with Ole, and to an extent with Ralf?

I would say it all started with Moyes, as he was not fit to be a United manager and when the players stopped playing for him, it set a precedent that has followed till date. A lot of the players in the team today are the same who were unhappy with Jose, calling him too harsh. A lot of the players in the team today are the same who were unhappy with Ole, questioning his tactics (got us qualified for UCL in all seasons), questioning the discipline in the team. Even Ralf couldn’t do much with these players as they knew even before he walked in that he’s just a temp hire and he didn’t matter much. They literally played his ‘Gegenpress’ for the first half against Viera’s Palace back in Dec’21 and never again.

As I said in my previous email, all roads lead back to Glazers. When the players know that when things get tough or against them, all they have to do is wait out the current manager (see Sancho), then you know what kind of culture festers in the club. I’m not getting into how much money they have spent, I’m talking about the ruthlessness to achieve success, wherein you take a few hits but believe in a project to see to its end. And that is only possible with time but more importantly with the player buy-in. When they realize that the club will side with the manager and as a player you follow along or be ready to be sold to some other club, the approach, the commitment changes.

ETH has shown that he can play an attractive, attacking and modern style of football but it requires all players to follow the instructions to the core including someone who recently signed a contract extension to become the highest paid player of the team. I’m not sure if Rashford’s personal problems of summer (breakup, engagement and breakup again) are the reason for his form but he and the rest of the lot have done their previous managers dirty by dropping the level of effort it requires to be successful in this pressure cooker of a club.

ETH has not had luck with the injuries but I largely blame the greedy glazers for it too. How can we play deep into a world cup season with the highest number of games in Europe and then go on a 3 country, 8 game friendlies? Compared to us, most of the top teams played 5 games and City played only 3. We all know who made that decision and pushed the coaching staff and players to adapt to it.

However, I’m not completely absolving the manager of his tactics, team selection and substitutions. But after last season, he should be allowed to make his mistakes and the injuries should be considered before we are out to get him.

And what is the plan here? Get him out and then bring the next manager (flavor of the month De Zerbi, experienced manager like Conte or a young proven manager like Nagelsmann) and start the process again?

My request to all the fellow United fans is to remind them the only thing SAF asked from us in that farewell speech is to ‘BACK THE MANAGER’! ETH has had to make a lot of tough decisions since he’s come and he still managed a sliver of success. When this joke of a club’s board and owners realize that us fans are supporting ETH, people who want him to succeed like Arnlod and Murtough can present a strong case on continuing to back the manager. These greedy owners don’t care about the fans but they do boast and measure fan engagement and if they see the amount of negativity out for ETH, they will happily replace him. That will take away the focus from their own failures and the process of mediocrity under the guise of a new era will restart.

So my humble request, please, we need to do our part and not get caught up in the same vicious cycle again.
AVM, Phoenix (Can we get at least a few lucky breaks with injuries and VAR decisions?!)

 

Keegan’s comments
I’ve been watching with interest the faux outrage and confected offence from the Kevin Keegan Comments. I’ve met him at a charity do, thoroughly decent man…and I’m Scottish, I should hate him.

Firstly, the comments aren’t as bad and Misogynistic as the frothing classes are making out.

I’m not in agreement with it but the rule appears to be that you can’t be a pundit or co-commentator unless you’ve
Played or managed in top level football. Personally, I’d love it (really love it!) if the broadcasters chucked in the odd top notch journalist or broadcaster but this seems to be the way it is.

We now have female pundits and co-commentators who’ve never played top level men’s football, they seem to to get a pass on
this rule.

I’m generally very supportive of women’s football, I mainly kept track of the recent women’s world cup as I thought it was my duty as a football fan to do that.

Do we have to keep pretending and compare it on a level with men’s football?

The one that always springs to mine with me is the England v Spain game at the Euros. Georgia Stanway’s goal in that game was an absolutely cracking strike. Then we had Darrent Bent (I think) telling us the next day on talk sportvthat it would have beaten any men’s keeper as well….I mean, c’mon. A male Keeper would have moved over and pulled it out the air as if it was a cross.
SH

 

Be kind
I’d just like to add my two pennies’ worth to the ongoing VAR debate and hopefully add some insight from a different angle. Even as a Liverpool fan, I was staggered by the incompetence of the decision making in the game but I am mature enough to let it go somewhat now the game is done and the dust is (beginning to) settle. What was hilarious at the time of watching Liverpool v Spurs in the pub I was in, was that 95% of the punters watching could see it was an easy decision, even to the naked eye. Unfortunately, what has let us down is incompetence of Darren England, the process and the way VAR is implemented. If we take, for example the Jones sending off – it’s firmly in the ‘Orange’ category, but the way that was put to the referee leaves some questions to be answered about whether VAR is there to influence the referee’s decision, or give the referee additional information (such as alternative camera angles) to reach that decision. I’m of the view Darren England was doing the former, rather than the latter.

What I’m not buying into is the ideas of corruption, and I’ll tell you why. The guy who was Assistant-VAR, Dan Cook – I know him. I played football with him from the age of 6 all the way through to 14, and then again for a brief period in Mens’ from the age of about 19-22. Back then, Dan was already an FA referee in our local leagues and was rising the ranks – he knew he wanted to make a career of being an official, and dedicated time, energy and made quite a few sacrifices to do it. He actually gave up Men’s football at 22 because he got booked in a game and your amateur disciplinary record follows you and can impact your chances of rising in the PMGOL. Whether you agree or not with that is moot, but this guy gave up his own love of playing so he could make a career in it. When he progressed into the ‘big leagues’, he started as an assistant (lino) as is the way, but when I saw him in the pub about a year later he said he didn’t want to be a referee – he didn’t want the attention/notoriety/abuse that comes from it. He’s now doing Champions’ League, International games, the Premier League weekly (and admittedly an ill-advised trip to the UAE) and is flying at a (relatively in officials’ terms) young age of 35. When I last saw him 18 months ago, I joked about how he must be doing a good job because I never see him mentioned on Sky, MOTD or in news articles relating to dodgy decisions, howlers etc. Unfortunately for him now, his name may be synonymous with the worst cock-up in the history of VAR, forever committed to the meme-vault. And even though he might be a low-key United fan, never once have I questioned his integrity or bias because he’s just doing his job to the best of his ability, the same as you and me. I messaged him earlier in the week and as you can imagine he’s having a rough time, so this is also a reminder not to be a dick online because these people are human too. They don’t deserve abuse or trolling just because of a mistake that wasn’t even ultimately their responsibility.

The big change I think we need to see (aside from all the process improvements PMGOL are putting in place) is allowing the fans/broadcasters to hear the audio. Gary Neville interestingly let slip on Sky after the game that they hear the VAR audio in the commentary booth as it’s happening – so it’s not impossible for them to broadcast it, and I think it would go a long way to restoring trust in the officials. Howard Webb needs to go though, he’s clearly not up to the job and as with most cock-ups of this size it’s often the head honcho that should fall on their sword because ultimately, it’s his responsibility – and he failed.

Lee (as if it needs to be said – be kind to yourself and others), LFC

 

Spurs should follow Wenger’s lead
The topic of rectifying the Spuds v Liverpool misunderstanding is being run dry! The Spuds aren’t going to make a move and one might say that’s their prerogative.

In 1998/99 Arsenal offered a rematch to Sheffield Utd regarding an embarrassing misunderstanding that led to a winning goal.

Wenger entered the opponents dressing room straight after the game (after a chat with Dein) to offer a rematch. Pure class!

Your call Spuds!
Chris Croydon

 

Why this cock-up is different
I’ve seen a lot of back and forth between commentators, distinguished mailboxers (undistinguished mailboxers), and generally anyone with an interest in the Diaz goal. For some this is just another VAR/Officiating mistake and, big though it may be, no different conceptually than any that have come before. I disagree. But before I share my logic. I don’t believe in replays or bonus points and I have no other agenda than to end the tedious whataboutery.

So, lets break it down. There is the event, the analysis, the decision, and the application of that decision. The event is a goal being scored or the tackle or misconduct. The analysis is the hive brain of information from the linesman, the referee, the VAR crew, all watching the event and looking for breaches of the rules of the game, supported by technology and line drawing etc. There is the decision that is informed by and follows the analysis. Then the application of that decision.

In every single example in the whataboutery-games the problem is in the analysis. Var malfunctions, then the analysis is wrong. The referee missed something, the analysis is wrong. The lines are draw on the wrong part of a sleeve or knee, the analysis is wrong. The goal line technology didn’t work, the analysis is wrong.

The analysis informs the decision. If the analysis is bad the decision is bad. So, an example I’ve seen. A glitch in goal-line technology prevented Sheffield United from being awarded a goal against Aston Villa in 2020. The game finished 0-0 and Villa finished that season fourth from bottom, one point ahead of Bournemouth who were relegated.

The analysis, being the information transmitted or not transmitted by the goal line technology, was bad. Which led to a bad decision. The application of that decision was that no goal was awarded. The decision and the application were consistent. They decided no goal should be awarded and duly awarded no goal.

The crucial thing here is that in every single comparator I’ve seen so far the decision reached (no matter how badly informed) was then applied.

Dale in the morning mailbox listed three other examples of major mistakes that could be candidates for replays.

1) Crystal Palace 1-1 Brighton. Estupian goal disallowed when VAR drew the lines wrong. – The information and analysis was bad which led to a bad decision of no-goal and that decision was applied consistently.
2) Arsenal 1-1 Brentford. Pinnock goal allowed to stand when VAR failed to check it for offside. The information and analysis was bad, absent in this case, which led to a bad decision which was then applied consistently.
3) Aston Villa 0-0 Sheffield United. Hawkeye failed to see the ball had crossed the Aston Villa goal line. The analysis due to the absence of information was bad which led to a bad decision which was applied consistently.

In all case, the three above and elsewhere, the decision can be abysmal, completely misinformed, corrupted by malfunctioning technology, or simply misinterpreted by the officials but the decision is applied consistently, every single time. By consistent I mean, if the decision is free kick then a free kick is awarded. If the decision is a penalty then a penalty awarded.

The Diaz goal. The event is that Diaz has collected the ball and scored a goal. The analysis is that the player was onside and no other breaches of the rules have occurred. The analysis includes the vision of those looking at the screen and the technology. This analysis concludes in the decision that the goal should stand. The decision is, objectively, a good decision. Now for the crucial difference. The decision was NOT applied consistently. The decision reached was Goal. The application was No-Goal.

This is why someone people are so adamant that this cock-up is truly unique. It is the only time the officials have reached a decision (rightly or wrongly) and then failed to apply the decision they reached. They failed to apply it because their communication is adolescent and they lacked the courage to halt play.

So unless your comparative example is a clear case of the officials reaching a decision and then not applying that decision please don’t use it.
TM

Read more: Ranking the top six lines from the Luis Diaz VAR audio, which is still even funnier than Klopp

The new Fergie
Just had a read of yesterday afternoon Scouse replies to the VAR debacle, from protocols to SOP’s, we have a lot of business improvement experts in the room. My take it’s a monumental f*ck up born from the drive to limit the delay in decision making in the game. The adage “Less haste, more speed” was never so apt.

Liverpool fans clamoured to say we’re not asking for a replay we just want to do this for everyone and yet not 24 hours later Klopp feels the right thing to do would be to have a replay!! Apparently, it’s unprecedented, accept it’s not. Mike Dean admitted he refused to intervene on VAR duties when Anthony Taylor missed Romero dragging Cucurella down by the hair at a corner. The subsequent action saw Spurs equalise. Dean admitted he didn’t want to send Taylor to the screen as he had had a tough game and wanted to spare his mate the grief. Should Dean have been removed from an officiating duties for Chelsea matches (my answer nope)?

But if we’re honest Klopp knows he won’t get the replay but what he does get is control. PGMOL pulling England from any duties officiating Liverpool for a season has set a dangerous precedence. The mistake bore all the hallmarks of the keystone cops but it wasn’t malicious intent; he was right that under the Laws of the game it couldn’t be restarted. Klopp now has referee’s and VAR officials right where he wants them.

Will be interesting to see the interaction of Referees and VAR in Liverpool games this season.
P Didi

 

This really does mean more
It seems New Balance were right after all, This Does Mean More when Liverpool are concerned. Whether you love Liverpool or hate Liverpool, the weekend’s event have stirred up emotions and opinions on every medium.

As has been pointed out by many, wrong decisions happen in every single match but nobody cares and nobody wants to do anything about it, so we should just move on. The strength of feeling isn’t there at other clubs.

The one thing that puzzles me about the discourse is why people think Liverpool should stfu. Sooner or later, your club will be wronged in some way. Don’t you want to prevent that from happening, and better still, have another team as the lightning rod?

I expect we’ll be fed another weekend fix of EPL ‘product’ and this story will fade away. It’s a shame that broader fan apathy means it won’t let to meaningful change.
Nilesh, Harrow

 

Just stop
Just read Mediawatch slightly bemused, but not surprised, by the national press reaction to Jurgen providing a personal opinion on the var mess and shook my head thinking “but no one’s bloody asking for a replay!”. Not one second later I get an update from James Pearce off Twitter saying we’ve lodged a formal appeal.

FFS.

This is just daft now. It won’t happen and all it’ll really succeed in doing is have every other numbskull supporter bringing it up just like the bell end referencing Heysel in the mailbox BTL comments section. Plus, it’s hardly likely to endear us to officials who are considered to be conspiring against us in some shady corners of the online fan base.

At this stage, the only realistic benefit I can think of is that the cards would presumably be scrubbed…..until we probably get another couple in the replay.

A terrible, terrible move and another questionable decision from the current hierarchy.
Andy, London (via everywhere)

 

Strive for better
So, according to your own Ciaran McCarthy in his article about Lewis Dunk, he says the right thing to do about the dodgy VAR call ”should be to be upset for a while, but to move on.” Is he for real?? Yes, an incorrect call happens, tought shit, move on. It happens all the time, but as has been REPEATEDLY pointed out, the Luis Diaz goal was not just an incorrect call. Bad calls happen all the time, every team is affected by them and its a regular occurrence. Look at the Diaz situation, Ciaran. Take a good long hard look at the entire situation from the goal to the VAR to the audio. You think teams should just accept that level of incompetence and get over it? You’re either a troll or an idiot.

F365, I propose a social experiment for Ciaran: Don’t pay him for 6 months, say it was just a human error and you believed he had been paid. Then watch the reaction. If he makes a fuss about, tell him he’s being a hypocrit and to just man up. Then release a statement acknowleding, but not apologising for, the error

2 very different, non-comparable situations, I agree. But it’s about human error, incomptence and flawed systems that need to change. Liverpool banter aside, football fans need to accept that what happened with Diaz’s goal is a situation that should never, ever have been able to occur at the top level of elite sport. Or any level. People keep suggesting an independent body to run VAR, which I think is a great idea. Also, mic up the refs, let us all hear what is happening in real-time. 2 solutions that would go a long way to eliminating mistakes, or at the very least allowing everyone to understand why certain decisions were made. Referees and PGMOL need to be held accountable, the same way players and managers are.

F365, I love you but stop endorsing mediocrity and help make referees and the system in which they operate better.
Clive (LFC)

 

…I love the view from a lot of people/presenters/journalist that allowing a reply would be a dangerous precedent and that Klopp should ultimately accept it: “chin up old boy, there’s a good chap, don’t make a fuss”.

Maybe this is why football accepts Infantino’s crazy ideas – a world cup in 3 continents – and allow Ceferin’s mate to be head of safety until a near fatal accident happens.

Why do we allow this multi-billion-dollar game to lag behind others in technology? What makes football so unique?

I feel the likes of “Citizen” Neville have a juxta positional view that football should be left alone until something that is 100% guaranteed to improve the game comes along. Sorry, that never happens. If floodlights were introduced in GN’s days I feel he would have complained as they would have been “too bright”

American football, cricket and rugby, all sports that contributors have referenced recently have gone through many iterations to get the point where they have found a good balance between technology and game flow.

And F365 please be careful with inciteful emails – I think you know the one – they are not helpful and it was rather disturbing that they were allowed to be printed.

Kindest regards
Ian H

 

Comical times
Growing up, I read literally “Football” comics. One memorable protest at a refereeing decision was, “You couldn’t ref a game of snakes and ladders”.

I thought that was some ridiculous hyperbole.

After reading the released audio transcripts, and seeing the game outcome, I extend a solemn apology to those comics writers. It wasn’t ridiculous hyperbole.
Gab YNWA “Truth is stranger than fiction”

 

Because, City
I suppose me pointing out yet again that Manchester City have never been actually proven in any sense to have ever broken any rules at all (outside “failing to comply” by refusing to hand over business sensitive paperwork to an organisation that was leaking that paperwork to the press) is yet again trying to correct a “fact” that “everybody knows”, thus people can shout 115 from the rooftops but they are still accusations and not proven. City probably have the most investigated accounts in the entire history of modern football at this point and still not a single transaction amongst the thousands has been shown to be wrong. Nor should the readers of a site that includes the MediaWatch feature need to be told that the things you’ve heard about “invisible sponsors” were actually crap reporting that was immediately debunked (in fact the person who claimed that one sponsor had no employees later wrote another poison pen piece interviewing a former employee of that company and didn’t see the contradiction). Yeah the media lie about YOUR team all the time, but about the controversial and anger inducing City they’re actually all CP Scott. Amazing coincidence.

The fact that the investigation after many years concluded the day before a massive vote on the independent football regulator by the Government, and the announcement actually had to be edited after release because it was so rushed, was I’m sure a complete coincidence and this legal case that includes charges others have previously dismissed (no, you don’t understand what time barring is/applied to CAS, Mailbox, please don’t start) will definitely be the one that gets us unlike all of the other overblown ones. Two more weeks, I hear.

The most interesting thing to watch on this journey as a City fan is not about the legal or the football or the trophies. It’s that we’re now an excuse. We’re an excuse for the incompetence in the transfer market of other clubs. We’re an excuse for poor mentality from players who crack under pressure. We’re an excuse for poor refereeing. We’re an excuse for bad investment decisions from owners. We’re an excuse for lack of investment from owners. We’re an excuse for your team appointing their sixth manager in eight years who yet again isn’t going to turn it all around but instead waste more millions of your money on rubbish that you won’t be able to shift when you inevitably sack him in a year and bring in a guy with a totally different football philosophy that these players can’t play.

And I wouldn’t have it any other way. Our competitive rivals are using us as an excuse for complacency and failure which means we’ve beaten them before they even step on the pitch. Only Liverpool believe they can match us and go toe-to-toe with us, which is why they are our only title threat despite last season and will remain so for the foreseeable future. An Arsenal fan comparing them as David to our Goliath shows where they are mentally – someone requiring the impossible miracle to succeed against insurmountable odds.

I wonder what the reaction of the Mailbox will be if City, who have one of the smallest squads in the league, go to Arsenal without Rodri and De Bruyne and win again? What would that say about Arsenal and their title challenge? I’m sure they’ll point to the quality in depth at City who are somehow seemingly the world’s first club to work out that you shouldn’t buy players who aren’t good enough to play for you. Or they’ll be a ref decision or some out of context balance sheet or some incredibly contrived narrative. But their excuse, like everybody’s excuse, will always end up being “Because Manchester City” rather than “Because we need to improve”.

Suppose it makes a change from “because stadium” which was their excuse for mediocrity for the decade previously.
Paul, Head of PR (Sportswashing Division) and confirmed sh*te fan, Manchester

 

Curious case of Chelsea no.8s
Four different managers, including Chelsea’s legendary No.8, assessed Kai Havertz’s potential as a No.8 for Chelsea and decided he wasn’t going to cut it. Mikel Arteta: “Hold my beer”.

Up in Manchester, Ten Hag makes a similar call about a similarly discarded Mason Mount with the added bonus of not actually having a place to play him in his state-of-the-art Man Utd team.

Across town, Pep added Kovatic, a world-class ball retention specialist to his overstocked shelves in what can only be described as one of the most unnecessary player purchases ever.

Back home, Chelsea then put Kante out on the kerb along with the rest of the broken crocks for the Saudis to come along and pick up.

Bizarrely, Loftus Cheek then rocked up at AC Milan as part of some sort of Chelsea tribute act, and Ross Barkley is now a Luton player, which is nice.

This allowed the Toddster to pay £250m for a range of No.6’s to fill the gap.

At this point, I’m really not sure who’s mugging who off.
Matthew (ITFC)

Howe to do it
Having watched the Newcastle first half yesterday and the full highlights today, nothing but praise for Eddie Howe and his team, they made PSG look like an average team at best. Mbappe must have thought, damn this Newcastle team is probably better than his current team!

It was fitting that Newcastle’s first UCL goal in over 20 years was scored by none other than Miguel Almiron, Newcastle’s real life version of Santiago Munez from the movie Goal. It was a great finish and has been so loyal and hard working as a player for Newcastle since he joined in 2018. He struggled when joining initially, not having scored in his first season, but I would argue he has arguably been Newcastle’s most important player in the last 5 years. Works so hard and shows by example, and the combination of him and Trippier down the right hand side is trouble for any team.

I just checked the age of Eddie Howe and I cannot believe he is 45 years old, he actually looks younger than that at 35, man knows how to take care of himself. He should stay at Newcastle for as long as possible, and I am sure the club want to keep him on as long as possible too, even if there are bad spells in-between. I am sure Newcastle fans remember the Joe Kinnear and Steve McLaren days, and are super grateful for Howe. Yes, the Saudi takeover certainly helped, but look at the players they have brought in while splashing the cash, fantastic purchases. Tonali looks World class, and Isak will become World class in time. United & Chelsea should take note on how to not spend money like a bunch of fools, buying players worth £50million+ with such little talent and work ethic.

My prediction for Newcastle is that they will potentially win a trophy this season, I can see them beating United in the 4th round of the League Cup and with City already out, they could definitely win it having reached the final last year. In the UCL, I predict they can possibly get to the quarter final stages, but still early days for the group stage. As for the league, I think even if they finish 6th or 7th, the club won’t mind and realise doing well in the Cup competitions is probably a priority for Eddie Howe and the team this year.

The Manchester United players should take note on how Newcastle played together as a TEAM yesterday. Instead, the players probably had a whinging session with their wives after the Galatasaray game (You can just imagine Bruno crying to his wife about that) or went home after the game and fell asleep with ease with the ridiculous money they earn, and the club happily pay them.
Rami, Dubai

 

Saudi takeover
There was a lot of talk in the summer about whether Saudi clubs would be allowed in the Champions League, forgetting they already are.

On an unrelated note, well done Newcastle. Great result last night.
Micki Attridge

 

Sportswashing in action
When I read F365’s ode to the Newcastle- PSG match, I could not help but think that PIF and MBS (Mohammed bin Salman to those of you who prefer his full name) would be high-fiving themselves. I doubt they could not have written it better! If a definitely left-leaning sports publication (online-cation?) would sing their praises, then they must be doing something right!

When Sherrif Tiraspol beat Real Madrid at the Santiago Bernabeu, very little was said about the owner’s alleged involvement in organized crime. Same here. F365 regaled us with stories of hometown heroes playing (and scoring), about a captain who has only started 3 games in 14 or so months marking out Mbappe, about the glorious ascent of United in such a short time.

If we keep on getting more of these sort of stories, most people would begin to see PIF ( and Saudi Arabia by extension) as – at worst – just some weirdos with a slightly different culture.

Congrats MbS and co, it’s working!
El-If, Abuja, Nigeria (Maybe if Bashar al-Assad buys Crystal Palace, we’ll say less negative things about the Syrian civil war.)