Ole ‘finishing’ fifth is better than Mourinho’s second…
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Recruitment is a tricky business…
I think Ade needs to put his crayons away and start to grow up, yes United are 5th and Liverpool are top guess what for the last 30 years Liverpool were nowhere and United were for the most part top that’s football. United currently sit 5th but before Covid-19 stepped in were on a good run and looking good for a top four place, now this for United should be bare minimum but the way the club went after Fergie left what with naff recruitment both managers and players he has had a lot of fire fighting to do but Ole is getting us back on track. Dalot was signed by Jose not Ole, I presume every player Klopp have signed have been imperious and successful? Karius, Klavan, Grujic, Grabara? Recruitment is a tricky business Ade even Jürgen can vouch for that.
I for one am quite happy with what Ole is doing at United and if a couple more of the right players are brought in then we can be challenging again. Watch your backs Liverpool we will return soon.
Paul Murphy, Manchester
There is no point coming second if left utterly broken…
Oh God, not this 2nd place nonsense again.
Apologies to F365 for the long email here, but I feel that Man Utd’s 2nd place finish needs to be regularly given a public flogging and seen for what it was – a win at all costs approach that didn’t come close to winning.
It’s galling that there are still people who are yet to realise why there is no point in coming 2nd, even 1st, if you are left utterly broken and unready for the next season. Not at a club with ambitions of staying at the top. A Premier League season is a lap of the circuit. If you post the second fastest lap but your car’s on fire, has three wheels, you’ve dumped all the fuel and you’ve thrown your steering wheel at the pit crew, you’re a bit fucked going into the first corner of the next lap aren’t you.
Any neutral will tell you we didn’t pass the eye test. We weren’t well drilled defensively or fluid in attack. We finished 2nd and Liverpool finished 4th – but nobody objectively thought Utd were a better side than Liverpool, certainly not going into 2018-19. Going by the numbers, we conceded nearly 16 goals fewer than we should have (De Gea having prevented 10 more goals than expected), and scored 9 over our expected goals. On expected points, we should have finished 6th. Mourinho apologists will dismiss the xNumbers, of course. The table reflects what actually happened, there is no point winning an imaginary table. But expected goals, assists, points etc show how repeatable a season’s performance is likely to be.
And we were set up to collapse in 2018-19.
Mourinho burnt bridges with so many players. He routinely put his own players down. We lost games and Mourinho would point blame at his squad. Players would make a mistake and he would drop them for weeks, months even. We were knocked out comfortably by Sevilla, and he would say this is United’s level based on their European heritage.
(This is the man who made his name winning the Champions League with Porto, ranting exactly 12 months before United knocked PSG out over two legs under his successor.)
Questioning Ole’s performance based on wages and money spent is trite and unfair. Of course he has the 3rd highest wage bill in the world – he can’t shift half of the massively overpaid rubbish Mourinho left him with. Of course he has to spend hundreds of millions – Mourinho didn’t build for the future, and himself wanted to replace virtually all of his own signings. Of course he hasn’t matched 2nd place yet – it was only by the miracle of De Gea’s season that Mourinho achieved 2nd despite himself.
Back to the present, we’ve lived out 3 or 4 seasons in 2019-20 without actually completing 1. It may be that Ole will hit his own ceiling in his progress with the side, and it will probably be the case that not having a DoF will prove a mistake that needs fixing in future. But we are undoubtedly a more appealing side for potential signings to join right now, than we were at the end of 2017-18. Ole ‘finishing’ this season 5th puts us in much better stead than Mourinho’s pyrrhic 2nd place.
Hoffbeadle
The most important result in Premier League history
I have been watching the void/ non-void/ start when safe to do so discussion with interest. However, it all appears to be coming down to what is best for your own club and then a series of fancy arguments to justify the stand point.
What I wanted to mention was that I think Watford beating Liverpool just before lockdown might turn out to be one of the most important results in Premier League history. Imagine for a second that Liverpool had won or drawn that match. They would still be unbeaten (in the league) in 2019/20. Now the void/ non-void discussion would be very different. If the season were voided Liverpool fans could (and would) claim forever that they had gone a season unbeaten. Even if voided, it doesn’t erase it from people’s memories. I would envisage any mentions of Arsenal’s unbeatables would have to carry an asterisk which denoted Liverpool were unbeaten in the voided 2019/20 season.
As it is, Liverpool were beaten and it comes down to the voting of individual clubs, rather than an objective governing body, as to what happens to the title. I am thinking it will be voided because more clubs benefit from that than they do from continuing.
As an aside, the draw for the Preliminary round of the Europa League is due to be held on 9 June. People usually think about the Champions League and Europa in terms of the big clubs. However, the qualifying rounds start hideously early. If decisions on individual leagues aren’t taken pretty soon I cannot see how the Champions League and Europa League can take place next season at all.
Micki Attridge
Defending Pochettino
I think Roode, MUFC is wearing some heavily MUFC tinted glasses in general but the point I take issue with the most is regarding Pochetinno. To use how well has he bought backup for Kane as a stick to beat him with is not very fair. Imagine tottenham approach a player and their offer is we want you but we already have a main guy but hey you will get some games. Now the modern way around that obstacle is throwing money at it. Somehow I can’t see Daniel Levy happily throwing big money at someone who isn’t going to play a big role because it doesn’t make sense business wise and that’s what Levy is a business man. So the player says well team X are offering me to be the main guy and team Y are offering me the big bucks so why exactly would I go to Tottenham.
Starting to see why it’s much harder to recruit decent quality back-up players for Tottenham than Man United? You can also point to the fact that one of Tottenhams best selling points was you get to work under Poch who has a track record of improving players. I don’t think Ole has that yet, he needs a lot more than the fleeting success so far anyway.
Then you have to take into account that Poch did a very good job of making do with what he was provided with and helped Son become one of the best all round forwards in the world, and also a competent backup for Kane when he was missing. Thus solving the problem of how do i make this work without having the money to throw at it. That’s the difference so far, Poch is a problem solver, Ole may be eventually but he certainly hasn’t looked like it the last year or so.
Never thought I’d see myself defending Tottenham so staunchly, but to compare the United free flowing never ending throw cash at it transfer policy to Levys Tottenhams penny pinching is madness. To then try say it was Pochetinnos fault they didn’t buy adequate backup to Kane is doing him a massive injustice. (Not wrong about peps dodgey fullback dealings though)
Aaron. CFC. Ireland
It’s not about Liverpool
I understand why Liverpool seem to be the main focus of the end-the-season debate. It’s absolute Top Bantz for many to imagine Liverpool not winning the title. But this is absolutely not about Liverpool. Laurence says this morning, is it fair on Liverpool? No, but tough. He mentions no other team.
The problem with the “void it” argument, is that football is that it’s not as simple as, saying oh well, never happened, start again. The money that sloshes around the game, has a dramatic effect on things. Whatever decision is made could potentially have financial implications for clubs that last for the next 10 years or longer.
Think about Norwich, with £100m extra cash, with another chance to establish themselves in the Premier League at the expense of Leeds or West Brom, who now have to start from scratch.
What about Leicester who are looking to kick on to the next level and make themselves a Champions League level club? Now they could be back to square one. That could dramatically alter their ability to hold on to key talent.
On the flip side, is it fair that Spurs will get to play in next season’s Champions League, reaping the financial rewards that brings?
That obviously continues down the leagues, with teams such as Coventry, Rotherham, Crewe, Swindon & Plymouth denied the opportunity to take their club to the next level.
In the grand scheme of things, who wins the Premier League is probably the least important effect of voiding the season. The consequences for some clubs could be absolutely catastrophic and deeply unfair. The only way to try and make things in any way fair is to finish the season. Things are getting better. The country will begin to open back up. In those circumstances, IF deemed safe by the experts, then the league should try to be completed.
Mike, LFC, London (Also, another Solskjaer debate? Haven’t we suffered enough?)
He will bring death, and they will love him for it
Hello mailbox compiler,
I am reading the clueless man’s (Raab) comments about football returning and have 2 points:
Firstly, there will be no crowds. So I assume, if it will lift spirits, then I assume all games will be made available free to air? Now being a sceptic, I can’t see sky or BT allowing all those games they have paid ridiculous amounts of money for, being allowed on freeview tv or free for streaming (not including season ticket holders, who should be entitled to watch the games they have paid for), as we get back to the same point of what is the point of us paying all of this money when there is no games/ all games are free! Can we have our money back/have a competitive advantage in the next round of bidding.
Secondly, the liability issue. If they do return, someone will get Covid 19 and maybe die from this (or a family member). Would this not be gross misconduct from an employer? If so, could people making decisions be prosecuted? Which reminds me of a scene it gladiator where one of the senate members comments:
“I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob. Conjure magic for them and they’ll be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they’ll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate, it’s the sand of the coliseum. He’ll bring them death – and they will love him for it.” Replace Rome for football and we pretty much have it.
A more realistic solution is to cancel the season, give Liverpool the title as they are so far clear. Promote the 2 automatic clubs. Have no relegation and use the money saved on parachute payments to help the EFL clubs.
Chris (I’d love to watch it, but health before wealth)
Mrs Di Maria got me thinking
The hilarious quotes from Di Maria’s missus got me thinking about players who left clubs and ended up been despised by the former club’s fans for various reasons.
There can be many reasons – player kissing the badge and promising undying loyalty and then leaves 5 mins later. The player joining a hated rival. The way a player orchestrates the move. Or even religion/race issues.
Some examples I can think of including the relevant recent one of Raheem Sterling leaving Liverpool for City and from ancient history Luis Figo going from Barcelona to Real Madrid. Or from pre-historic times Mo Johnston ending up at Rangers after previously playing for Celtic.
Any others spring to mind?
Aido (praying for the Bundesliga restart)
Kildare, Ireland
Reading this morning’s piece on Jorgelina Cardoso (Angel Di Maria’s wife) and her dislike of all things Manchester, I was wondering where it might rank in an all-time list of disgruntled new residents in PL history.
So many legends have made clear that they hated the rain in Manchester (Vidic, Ronaldo to name a few), while Kieron Dyer was less than complementary about the experience of resettling on Tyneside. Thibaut Courtois eventually left Chelsea because his girlfriend couldn’t stand to live in London, but I can’t remember many more withering put downs of a city than Senora Cardosa’s. Has anyone got any better that come to mind?
Jamie
Not 90 minutes? Why not just play next goal wins
There was a girl called Bertha (I might have changed this) when I was 12 in year 7 and we were best friends, though I was a little bit in love with her. She didn’t feel the same, or if she did she never showed it, and I was still far too inexperienced to know how to engineer my behaviour to make things more likely to happen romantically.
So we were just really close friends. We hung out all the time. We walked home from school together and we talked on the phone most nights, and it was amazing because she was amazing and it felt so great that she enjoyed spending time with me.
But it also felt like a sweet, happy torture, because I wanted things I didn’t even know how to explain to myself, let alone her. All the time we spent together, getting closer, it felt like I was constantly wasting the chance of it being something more by letting it be so good as it was.
So all this pent up unfocused wanting and frustrated happiness was in my head and growing.
And then one summer day after school we walked back through the manicured London park outside school. It was warm and sunny with just enough breeze that it was the perfect temperature, and as we walked the sunlight shone through the leaves of the tall trees that gently swayed above and dappled shaded patterns of gold and green on the path at our feet, so it was as if we were walking on a sunlit river of beauty while the canopies of the trees curved and met over our heads, turning the path into our own private secluded magical world.
And she didn’t say anything, but she reached out and held my hand and we walked slowly through the golden green hazy soft summer air, and it was both the best and yet the worst feeling I’ve ever had.
So, anyway. I for one know exactly how it’ll feel if the world being devastated nevertheless results in Liverpool not winning the league title.
Tim Sutton
Pele isn’t on your list?
Stu, Bromley – I’m not sure this sport is for you fella if Pele doesn’t make your list. Let’s start with the “never played in Europe argument”. Real Madrid, Juventus, Manchester United and Inter Milan all tried to sign him. In 1961 the President of Brazil declared him an “official national treasure” to prevent his transfer overseas. So he stayed in Brazil, where he made his league debut at 15 (fifteen!!) and scored, the following season he was top scorer in the league at 16, won the title at 18 after scoring 58 goals (still a record today). In 1962 he won the Copa Libertadores (second highest scorer) before retaining both that and the league the following season whilst adding the Intercontinental Cup by beating Benfica (hat-trick in the second leg). Santos won the national title six times with Pele and only two other times in the 100+ year history of the club, ,their ONLY Intercontinental Cups were won with him and they’ve managed one other Copa Libertadores without him. His impact on Santos is right up there with Maradonna at Napoli.
You say that he played with some great players, well let’s see what his contemporaries say…
“Pelé was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.” – Cryuff
“He had an extraordinary perception of the game.” – Carlos Alberto
“Pelé was the greatest – he was simply flawless” – Tostao
“Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. There’s no one to compare with him” – Beckenbauer
“The greatest player in history was Di Stéfano. I refuse to classify Pelé as a player. He was above that.” – Puskas
“When I saw Pelé play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.” – Fontaine
“Pelé was the most complete player I’ve ever seen” – Bobby Moore
“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.” – Bobby Charlton
The trouble with judging people like Pele is massive recency bias and a lack of surviving video but even with all that, any list of GOAT players without him is just a collection of names.
Lee
Stu from Bromley dropped Zinedine Zidane in his Top 5 players of all time this morning in the Mailbox, now I must admit i was a bit naive to Zidane, maybe this was due to my age, being born in 1993 my memories of Zizou are mainly from Euro 2004 and the infamous World Cup final in 2006, however during lockdown I have found myself indulging in not just documentaries but also some really good football related books, I am sure many are aware of a book by Michael Cox called Zonal Marking, in that book one of the eras of football he covers is the France side from 1998 into the 2000’s, he talks about how Zidane changed the game, how his style, his flair were mesmerizing, it has certainly given me a different perspective on the French international legend for sure.
One extra point I wanted to make, I dropped it in the comments this morning but DD, MUFC mentioned about a right hand man for Ole, similar to how Sir Alex had his, well to me the perfect person to fulfill that Kidd/Phelan/Queiroz role, very intelligent and once completed his coaching badges could become a top manager one day.
Mikey, CFC
Football began in 2000?
Hey there
Hope everyone is safe and well. I’ve just noticed an interesting phenomenon in all things football in that our memories now seem to have a range of about 20years. Having plugged the live football gap with endless Youtube compilations, I’ve noticed how all highlights reels (great counterattacking goals, best free kicks etc) rarely use footage from the 90s now. Meantime, recent talk about the Treble season is being treated like some rare found footage item. Now this morning, you have done a list of stopping the season at 29 games but included nothing before 2000. Now sure whether to find this interesting or annoying (honestly) Anyone else notice this?
Hugh, Cork/Dublin
Nearing the end…
It became clear early on that I wasn’t going to find enough players to form complete XIs for certain letters of the alphabet, so Q, U, X & Y join forces to form a team. R & S were very hard to pick with so many potential options. T was surprisingly difficult, assume I’ve missed a few there!
QUXY football: Widely considered the greatest goalkeeper of all-time, the legendary Lev Yashin is in goal. Jacinto Quincoces (Spain & Real Madrid) plays as sweeper behind a back three of Chilean great Alberto Quintano, big Ron Yeats (c) & the Uruguyan Luis Ubina. The midfield four is comprised of Bulgarian star Dimitar Yakimov, Xavi, Roberto Ufart (Spain & Sociedad) & appropriately for lockdown, the prolific Quarentinha (14 goals in 13 appearances for Brazil). Up front are Niall Quinn (with his disco pants) & Spaniard Quini who won seven top scorer awards. Subs include Quim, East Germany’s Klaus Urbanczyk & Santos Urdinaran (WC winner with Uruguay in 1930).
The R-soles: Thomas Ravelli in goal and a back three of Ramos, Ruggeri & Reuter. A solid three-man midfield consisting of Robson (c), Rijkaard & Redondo. Cristiano Ronaldo and Ronaldinho attack from wide with Ronaldo & Rush up front. Bench options include Romario, Rivaldo, Rivelino, Rats ,Raul, Rai, Riquelme, Riva, Rydell, Rummenigge, Rieldle, Rensenbrink, Rep & Rossi.
The S-entials: Schmeichel wins an amazing battle for the gloves (see bench), behind a back four of Djalma Santos & Nilton Santos (not related!) as attacking full backs with Stam & Sammer in the middle. Souness (c) & Seedorf run midfield, with Stoichkov pulling the strings behind a devastating attack of Salah, Shearer & Suarez. Bench options include Southall, Seaman, Shilton, Elisha Scott, Scirea, Schwarzenbeck, Shevchenko, Socrates, Savicevic, Stoikovic, Scholes, Sensini & Seeler.
The T-bags: The iconic Bert Trautmann in goal and a back three of Mauro Tassotti, John Terry (c) & Phil Thompson. Thuram & Argentine ’78 WC winner Alberto Tarantini as wing backs. Marco Tardelli anchors midfield behind a creative trio of Jean Tigana, Totti & Tostao. Torres leads the line. In reserve are Jean Thissen, Marius Tresor & Lajos Tichy.
Vinny (LFC) Colchester
