Women’s World Cup apathy isn’t bigotry. And Arsenal have spent £200m for third place…
Whether it’s men or women, football is football, right? Wrong, says the Mailbox in reaction to Johnny Nic. Also: despite all that money spent, one Arsenal fan reckons the best they can hope for is third…
Get your views in to theeditor@football365.com…
Apathy isn’t bigotry
If you love basketball, but don’t love wheelchair basketball, you’re ableist.
Where does this type of mentality end? And is it the right course of action? As ever, the majority of people are dragged into a debate in which we have no ‘skin in the game’ and our apathy has been taken from us, and handed back in the form of bigotry.
This is usually the point where I would have to clarify that I’m not a bigot, but apparently, that means I am one, and in fact in 2023, all roads other than 100% acceptance lead to being labelled a bigot. This is great, and the writers of articles on sexism can sit back and feel very pleased with themselves, sparing no thought to what will actually follow.
Apathy and indifference are luxuries that we are no longer afforded. Five years ago, if you would have asked me what I thought of women’s football, I would have said that I’m not bothered, not interested, or not really aware of it. Ask a genuine bigot and they would have said something along the lines of ‘they should get back in the kitchen and leave football to men’. It’s clear from the two responses, that one person is the problem, and one is not. Now, under the dogma of those like JN, we are both bigots, I am as bad as the bigot, if not worse, simply for not caring.
Don’t watch AFCON? Racist. Don’t watch women’s football? Sexist. Don’t watch grassroots football? Saudi-funded venture capitalist.
This is great because it makes you feel good; but by lumping those two people together under the same label, despite opposing intentions and beliefs, you have made two bigots, where there was previously only one. Is that a good thing? Or are fewer bigots a good thing?
Rodney, Suffolk.
Other reasons why people might not watch
A well intentioned, but utterly tedious article from John Nicholson today about the women’s World Cup. Summer up by the lines: “If you really like football, there’s really no excuse, because the Women’s World Cup absolutely is football, so you really should enjoy it.”
See. You should enjoy it. You MUST enjoy it!!!! If you don’t you are a massive misogynist!!!
This is what people hate. This is the attitude that is completely unhelpful when it comes to discussion of the women’s game.
For the record, I enjoy women’s sports. Yesterday, in the middle of one of the greatest Wimbledon men’s finals of recent years, I was watching the end of a thrilling women’s Ashes match. It was excellent. I watched some of the women’s Euros last time out. I enjoyed that too. But I won’t be watching the World Cup, for several reasons. I would have had absolutely no reason to write in and justify this, until John’s email.So here is why I’m not watching.
1) I just don’t have much time. I work. I have a one year old and a two year old. The aforementioned Wimbledon final was the first match I had watched of the entire tournament. When men’s football is on, I manage to watch games in the evening, but anything else I don’t often get the chance to watch.In the men’s World Cup I watched the 7pm games and that was about it.
2) Other sport. To add to the above, when I do get to watch sport, I have to pick and choose. There are 2 men’s ashes tests coming up and if I’m going to watch any sport, that will be it. That’s not sexist, that’s me watching the sport I’ve enjoyed watching for the past 25 years.
3) Timings. We’re not all football journalists. The games are either on in the middle of the night, or in the morning, when people are at work. Some of us have things to do (see above)
4) Knowledge and interest. I tend to watch football where I have knowledge of the players and an interest in the outcome. Usually its when a team I support is playing (and Scotland have not qualified here). E.g. I don’t watch the Copa America, or the copa libertadores, Serie A, La Liga etc. I tend to watch the Premier League, Champions League and internationals involving Scotland (and sometimes England). I’ve not previous investment in Women’s football, so its just not high on my priority list.
If England do well and make the semi-finals or final, I’m sure I will try to watch. And I’ve not made a single comment here criticising women’s football, skill level etc. I think it’s great that women’s football has had an increase in popularity and a higher profile etc. can only be a good thing. But please, please, please do not tell me that I HAVE to watch it or I’m a big sexist. That does not help the conversation.
Mike, LFC, London
John Nicholson: Love football but not watching the women’s World Cup? What’s wrong with you?
Not the same
I read Johnny Nic’s article saying there’s no difference between men’s and women’s football. Well, I watched the ad that was linked to Daniel Storey’s twitter – the ad it turns out has VFX to make the women look like men.
Well, and I dunno if it’s my deep cynicism and inbuilt distrust of all media – but it seemed instantly obvious to me that I was watching women’s football.
I thought, “ah that’s a weak shot for a goal, kinda surprised that the keeper didn’t save that”… again and again.
Allison Becker or Courtois (and most PL goal keepers) would save all those shots.
The thing meant to demonstrate the similarity, perfectly exemplified the big difference.
Sorry, I just don’t buy it Johnny Nic, and it’s obviously not true – women’s international teams regularly train against male u15s teams, as that’s their competitive level.
That’s fine with me. I’d lose against u15s.
It’s a different sport, and that’s ok.
Adrian
…John Nicholson recent article on the Women’s World Cup and his assertion there is something wrong with you if you don’t watch it(seriously, is it okay to say that?). It is an article full of misconceptions and ignorance.
His evidence amounts to showing someone clips of football from Women’s and Men’s football to suggest they are of equal quality. That is akin to when your club sign a player you haven’t heard of so you check out his Youtube clips and he looks a world beater. Only to find out he’s fails to live up to it in reality.
You can’t judge the difference between Men’s and Women’s football on Youtube clips. That is ridiculous.
If you really want to compare research the one sided results that happen when men take on women at football. Or even when U15 sides take on adult women’s sides. That will give you some idea of the gulf between both genders at football.
He used such terms as “misogynistically dismissive” to suggest if you have a view point that men’s football is better you must be being misogynistic. Men’s football is faster, stronger and yes more skillful. Don’t get me wrong, the women can look just as skillful as the men, especially when comparing isolated video clips but the men do it at such a faster pace as they often have much less time on the ball.
The Orange advert proves nothing. It shows women competing against women to show us how women can be as good as the men. Of course women can look as good as men when using clips of women against other women. When men play against men of a similar level they can have moments of magic even at local park level. It doesn’t mean they are as good as the professional players.
So when someone tells you John that the women’s game is inferior, it doesn’t automatically make then misogynistic, it is just fact. No matter how much you wish to bend the truth and use deciept to believe it. So if anybody is trying to avoid the truth here John…
So sorry to disappoint you John but I probably won’t be watching and it is nothing to do with misogynistic. There are several reasons including the time the matches are scheduled and partly because it doesn’t particularly excite me. This is nothing to do with hating or discriminating against women, it is just because I don’t watch every single football match. Left to my own devices I probably would watch a lot more football than I do, but I have responsibilities to my family and to my work. So I pick and choose which matches I watch. So I don’t take in every Premier League, EFL, Scottish or European game. I don’t believe you’d accuse me of being misandristic because of that would you?
To anyone who watches women’s football or will watch the Women’s World Cup, I hope you enjoy it. I hope the women’s game continues to grow, I believe it attracts a different kind of audience to the men’s game. I know people who would much rather take their children to a women’s game than a men’s game and that is fine and I get it. But there is room for both the men’s and the women’s game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring one over the other.
Mally (wishing England’s women good luck, even if I don’t end up watching) Smith
…John Nic is the most boring stuck record I’ve ever read.
Allow me to assumptions on his character:
I reckon he thinks corn flakes from Lidl are the same as Kellogg’s, Ssangyong cars are as good as a BMW.
He honestly reminds me of when my mum bought me Patrick trainers instead of Puma “you like trainers, here are some trainers”
So my conclusion is that John just likes shit stuff, like Brewsters lager, microwave dinners and Lambert and butler fags and hates us for liking anything different.
I personally like watching England women, but that’s it. I like some metal bands, but not all the genre.
Get my point?
Fat Man
…I won’t be watching the women’s World Cup; I find the women’s borderline unwatchable for one very simple reason: pace.
Men are much faster than women. It’s why there’s a full second between the respective 100m world records for the different genders. Touch and technique may be no different, but it’s like watching a men’s game on 75% speed. I find it infuriating. The pace is much quicker when I watch non-league.
Might make me a Luddite in the eyes of some, got nothing against women playing, but for me personally, as a spectator brought up on Fergie’s lightning fast counterattacking teams, it does nothing for me.
Lewis, Busby Way
…I wonder if John Nicholson will let me have the following opinion: I can enjoy men’s football at an amateur level, because the football can still be of a very high quality. I can only enjoy women’s football at the highest level, because anything below level isn’t good enough. I play for a club in the Netherlands that has a lot of female players. I see them train, I see them play and am impressed and pleased that the women’s game in the Netherlands has developed ao quickly. People – men or women – playing sport, whichever sport, what’s there not to like? But, does that mean I HAVE to enjoy the football they produce and if I don’t there’s ‘something wrong with me’ or I’m a sexist? Tough luck, John. I see these females struggle to control the ball adequately or get a corner past the first post, similar to most of my male team mates, and think, nope, that’s not for me. So, John, am I allowed to have this opinion?
G Thomas, Breda
…The will we, wont we / do we, dont we Women’s football is the same as Mens argument is dull… really dull
And daft!
I watch the mens (because apparently we have to be clear now) 1st / top division / and England play football
I dont watch Champo / League 1 footbal, I dont watch the vanarama cup isthmian league trophy cup playoffs.. or whatever the hell is outside the Premier league.. I dont watch the Under 21s Liverpool team and I dont watch womens football..
Regardless of CGI adverts and swapped heads and bodies and what John ‘The Virtue Signal’ Nic wants us to believe… I dont watch any of them because, they are not as good / entertaining / involve the players and team I have any interest in!
And the last point is probably the most relevant… I just dont care…
Football, they say, is like a religion, But no one suggest If I am catholic, I should give the Muslim faith a go for a few weeks to see that its just as good as the one I do like.. . Go on its just as good and as much fun and sometime they dont moan so its better….
But does any of that make me inherently sexist? I dont enjoy womens tennis or cricket either… But I dont really enjoy mens tennis and only enjoy England play cricket, County Cricket and the 100 can all go to hell for all I care.. So the womens ashes.. No.. I watched the ‘fast’ bowlers hit 70mph and the swing bowlers bowl slower than me when I played village cricket!
I had to watch it to be sure I didnt like it (how do you know if you have never tried it..) it was just not ever so good. And I dotn go down the locval park and watch the lads play there for the same reason.. its just not very good
Cant people be allowed to like what they like without getting ‘shamed’ (in the modern parlance) for it..?
I like Metallica, love them in fact.. and I like Madness, Since I was 10 they were my favourite band… but I do not like The Shi.. White Stripes.. Not because Meg cant drum (I have a drum kit.. she can drum.. just not ever so well..) but because I dont really enjoy what they do… its not my thing… despite my music loves being wide and varied..
So Please, write about the upcoming Womans World cup (despite never writing about any league below or outside the Premier on F365, No England Ladies ladder for example…? Coz you know no one knows who they are or why that comment about them being no.50 is funny…) but write about the games, players and results, not about who is and isnt watching and if they should or should not be doing so.
Good luck to the ladies – I enjoy England doing well at any sport. But dont watch them do it necessarily! Does that make me sexist?
Al – LFC – Im sure he mailbox will be happy to tell me… (Atheist for the record. 1000 religions available… I just believe in 1 less than you do!)
All the best, Harry
A spot of appreciation for Harry Maguire.
Much maligned, but certain positions and people seem to attract even more scrutiny than others at United, already infamous for brining a scorching spotlight to bear upon players, and coaches.
Look, it certainly wasn’t malicious when he struggled, although he hasn’t quite worked out at United as a CB to build the team around.
No, he isn’t worth 80M, he certainly is nowhere near as bad as many like to make out though.
Guess everyone who ever selected him for any team knows nothing about football then, right.
Enough said I think.
If he moves on to West Ham, I hope that he rediscovers his best form there.
Manc from SA (Almost kick off time, got to love World cup fever.)
All that money to drop a place
Naz said Gooners should be really excited about what the future holds – not that we would dominate for the next five years. You cheeky scamps.
I am excited but I think the best we can hope for next season is third. I agree that Mason Mount is an excellent buy and expect City’s main challenge to come from their inter city rivals.
Sorry to come off as a bit Stewie there.
Graham Simons, Gooner, Norf London
Sussing City after assessing Arsenal
After having my mail published on Monday morning assessing the way Arteta and Edu have set Arsenal up for the next 4 – 5 years, I thought I would do a similar assessment of Man City. Again, all information is via Transfermarkt:
16 Key Man City players along with their (ages) and (contract length including +1 options) in brackets:
Julian Alvarez (23) (5 years)
Erling Haaland (22) (4 years)
Phil Foden (23) (4 years)
Jack Grealish (27) (4 years)
Mateo Kovacic (29) (4 years)
Manuel Akanji (27) (4 years)
Ruben Dias (26) (4 years)
Rodri (27) (4 years)
Ederson (29) (3 years)
John Stones (29) (3 years)
Nathan Ake (28) (2 years)
Aymeric Laporte (29) (2 years)
Bernardo Silva (28) (2 years)
Riyad Mahrez (32) (2 years)
Kevin De Bruyne (32) (2 years)
Kyle Walker (33) (1 year)
2 “prospects” who have credibly been involved in first team action:
Cole Palmer (21) (3 years)
Rico Lewis (18) (1 year)
2 additional (seemingly unwanted players) on long term contracts and high wages:
Joao Cancelo (29) (4 years)
Kalvin Phillips (27) (5 years)
In addition to these 20 players, there are 3 GKs (Ortega, Steffen and the yet to retire treble winning Scott Carson). There is also Sergio Gomez who joined last summer instead of Cucurella but doesn’t seem to be trusted.
Firstly, the Treble Winning Man City team of 22/23 were an absolute behemoth. The playing squad is utterly elite and will likely hoover up multiple trophies over the coming seasons.
However, it is also clear that 9 of the 16 key players currently in their squad are 28 or older and just 3 (Haaland, Alvarez and Foden) are 25 or younger. Ultimately, over the next 4 – 5 years there will be a number of key players at Man City that will likely need replacing. How Man City do that (and all the evidence of the Pep and Txiki reign suggests it will be efficient) will be key to Man City sustaining their dominance over the next 4 – 5 years.
Naz, Gooner.
Some thoughts
With reference to the very valid mail from Naz, it is worth remembering that just a year ago Tottenham was being discussed as the more attractive prospect between them and Arsenal in this hallowed mailbox. Okay admittedly, it may have been a Barry Fox email but oh… how the turntables.
On us, it’s strange to think that the two players Klopp most valued in his counter-press system are now respectively playing in Saudi and departing for Saudi shortly. The upside is that Trent no longer needs to be a faux right back, he gets to play as a defence mid. Between him and Hendo we should be okay there. Even if Hendo goes anti-LGBT, Trent is the kind of player you want starting 50 games a season.
Lastly, Rob, Kilkenny, I commend your humour and am willing to start a movement for your appointment as Head of Creative at FIFA / UEFA / FA / FAI / SAFF (your choice).
Best,
Wik, Pretoria, (pre-season is back), LFC