Mason Greenwood: The case for his Manchester United return in the Mailbox
Mason Greenwood is a subject that splits Manchester United fans; we bring you the other side of the argument here.
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Actually, F365 are wrong on Mason Greenwood
I very much agree with Ian Watson’s statement that there is a clear right and wrong on Mason Greenwood, but unfortunately he’s increasingly lurching towards the wrong side of it.
His last article on the topic attempted to pretend to be vaguely objective and explorative, whilst here’s he’s decided to be more honest and outright say Greenwood has to go.
(He hasn’t written on this subject before; we presume you are referring to this from another F365 writer – Ed)
Watson would like us to be judge, jury, and executioner, despite us not having anywhere close to all of the facts available to us. He’s heard a few tidbits, perhaps read a few Reddit threads, who knows? He only makes reference to a “many among us” who all seem to agree that knowing a fraction of the facts is enough to promote ending his Utd career.
I actually felt he should be hung and quartered when this all first came out, but I’ve the self awareness and groundedness to realise I was wrong to jump to ignorant conclusions.
The CPS didn’t even feel they have enough to attempt to make a decent go of it. Whatever the new evidence was, it was enough to have them take all the flack for dropping a high profile case in this current climate, rather than to at least put a best foot forward to demonstrate they had reasonable grounds to have a formal legal debate on the issues in court.
You’re presumed innocent in this country until proven otherwise. Watson says that football doesn’t need to have the same standard as the law. So, what should it be? In the last article, he suggested the priorities need to be what investors would think, or what the women’s team feel on the matter. Should we set up tribunals where they lead proceedings?
It’s clearly been a complicated case, given the rollercoaster the CPS was on with it, and they’re professionals at this, as opposed to whatever the internal investigation at Utd might look like.
He’s lost his livelihood, he was dropped by all sponsors, he’s been in the wilderness for years, and after all of this, every single charge was dropped, completely.
One complainant, a few audios, photos, and whatever else he’s read, Watson feels he knows more than everyone else. It’s so crystal clear to him that there’s not even a debate to be had, and that attitude, more than anything disqualifies everything else he says that follows. There’s an arrogance and righteousness from him that is reflective of the wider issues we have today about having constructive debate and dialogue.
I’m not saying I know what happened, but I’m also saying those who want him banished don’t either, and with so much uncertainty around the matter, having hardly heard from any of those who have been directly affected, it is extremely irresponsible for someone with such a platform to advocate so damningly.
Please, do better.
…Go on then Ian Watson, I’ll bite with regard to the latest drivel that has vomited forth from your keyboard. This won’t be a short email and I suspect it won’t get published on that point alone but I can only hope.
I will start by moving quickly past the paragraph on the potential MUFC takeover, it is simply a nonsense preamble which bears no relevance whatsoever in the case of Mason Greenwood and is only there so you can link to a previous article written by yourself and to set up the construct of what you think MUFC should do morally in your opinion.
So let us get to the part which makes your entire article pointless: –
‘As you will likely know – if not, his supporters will gleefully tell you – Greenwood has not been prosecuted for any crime.’
Correct, he has not been prosecuted for any crime. That’s it, the whole reason your article does not need to exist. The use of the covering ‘if not, his supporters will gleefully tell you’ is an infantile attempt to corral anyone who disagrees with you in to another group who are just wrong because…and the use of the word “gleefully” is used to full effect as though to imply some sort of zeal or fervour on their part.
It is not about being pro-Greenwood or anti-Greenwood, it is not about do more people believe or disbelieve the accuser or the accused and it most definitely is NOT to do with your feelings on the matter.
You correctly point out that Greenwood was charged with 3 extremely serious offences but you seem to confuse being charged with being guilty, they are not the same.
The CPS will prosecute a case based on the following 2 stage criteria: –
Does the evidence provide a realistic prospect of conviction?
Is it in the public interest to prosecute?
What the CPS actually said (quoted here) is: –
‘In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. In these circumstances, we are under a duty to stop the case.’
So the CPS test failed at the first stage after a year of scrutiny. I for one would find it interesting to know why key witnesses dropped out and what exactly is this new evidence? I could be like you Mr Watson and spout nonsense here but I can only come up with 1 scenario where both those reasons make sense in relation to each other.
What makes your article and reasoning even more silly is the following: –
‘Mason Greenwood should never again enjoy the privilege of pulling on a red shirt.
There are numerous counter-arguments to that statement, some slightly more credible than others’
There is 1 counter argument that renders your opinion void and that is Mason Greenwood has been cleared and is innocent.
You then descend into even more madness with: –
‘But for the many among us who have seen and heard the evidence that prompted the police to act in the first instance, it is enough to reach a verdict over Greenwood’s United career even if it is insufficient to continue a criminal prosecution.’
What is this “evidence” that you and “many among us” have seen and heard? Have you evidence of Greenwood actually inflicting the blows that caused the injuries? A confession from Greenwood himself maybe? If you have something, shouldn’t you and the many be turning it over to the CPS so they can prosecute the case? No, I suspect what you saw were the same Instagram pictures and video a lot of us have seen and from that you have tried and convicted the accused in your own head and as proof you even state it in the quote above. Your verdict does not count at all Mr Watson, it means nothing and that is the same as the many you speak of.
‘Manchester United’s threshold – football’s threshold – need not be as high as the CPS’s. F***, does that really need to be said? Especially on the occasions the evidence is in plain sight.’
What? No, actually – what?? Evidence is in plain sight…but the CPS cannot construct a case? A body of legal experts who review cases like this day-in and day-out were clueless whilst you just know the verdict outright based on Instagram pictures and a video that were immediately deleted by the owner? Despite there being no case to answer, MUFC should just say “F*** it! He’s guilty!!”? I should imagine Mr Greenwood might be instructing his lawyers to look at unfair dismissal since United have no legal legs to stand on.
‘United have said they are carrying out their own internal investigation. They have had almost 14 months to do their digging and though it was best left to the police for over a year, the club were hardly starting afresh upon news that the CPS were discontinuing their probe.’
You expected the club to grill an employee at the exact same time that the police and CPS were also pulling apart every facet of his personal life? Whilst typing in that moronic statement above did you not stop to consider the mental impact that may have had on the individual? No, you were just thinking about this moral crusade that you must fight and for which people must be sacrificed.
‘Since there is a reasonable likelihood that we cannot trust United to reach the right conclusion on their own, we can only hope that they receive enough pushback to stumble upon the necessary outcome.’
Well, how very high and mighty of you. MUFC should get rid of a man who has not been convicted of any crime, has not even stood trial in fact, for what reason exactly? Is it because you saw some pictures on Instagram and a video and immediately made your mind up?
Disagree that Greenwood is innocent in this case? Then can I suggest you have a look at this to give you some perspective.
‘If they need members of their women’s team to remind them of that, that’s already a black mark that won’t wash.’
If the members of the women’s team cannot accept that in the eyes of the law, which is all that counts in this matter, that Greenwood is innocent then they need to be educated about it.
‘It feels like United are a little too keen to be seen to be doing the right thing by the wrong person.’
So you just have a dislike for Mason Greenwood then? Is this the point of your entire article?? If it’s a dislike of domestic abusers, fair enough but can I again point out that Greenwood has not been convicted on any charge. Your piece exposes you as nothing more than a barrack-room lawyer.
So let me conclude and say that domestic abuse and assault of any kind by anyone of any gender against any other gender is unacceptable but we must not always leap to a conclusion of guilty based on hearsay, Instagram and the like or even the accusation alone. The law doesn’t give a damn about your feelings and you should not be using your platform to voice off your agenda when it is totally contrary to the actual evidence that everyone can see – the CPS statements and the dropping of the case.
I fully expect MUFC to integrate Greenwood back in to their squad, it will send out the signal that, in this case at least, an innocent man should not pay with his career and livelihood because they were accused and nothing else.
I would like to report Ian Watson to the F365 ethics committee for that horrendous article on Greenwood.
Yeah the lad needs to be let go and find a different club, no disagreements there. But how dare Ian write an article merely “423” days from his arrest. Couldn’t you wait just 4 more days? Haven’t you learned anything about this site?
Gaurav, MUFC, Amsterdam
Stewie is back on Arsenal
If you want to know why I constantly snipe at Arsenal FC, it’s down to the eternal perpetual, misplaced arrogance of their fanbase. In the recent mailbox, somehow, Arsenal fans have managed to:
A) Make Spurs’ failures and troubles this season all about Arsenal’s “success”. As if Spurs fans contextualise every single thing based on Arsenal’s season.🙄. Some do, but of course most of them just focus on their club, and want Spurs to be as successful as possible. It’s hilarious egocentrism. Had eg a Liverpool fan asked a Spurs fan if Arsenal’s “success” has made the Conte thing worse, it’s different. Of course, it just had to be an Arsenal fan asking it.
B) Trot out a bullshit tinfoil-hat Fox News theory that Rodri’s admittedly-shocking tackle on Odegaard, was down to Rodri’s “fear” of Arsenal in the title race (and not say, because Rodri has a history of making crap mistimed tackles like this when playing for Spain, who aren’t as good as Citeh, meaning Rodri has more spaces to cover and is often at sea). I take it that when Rodri scythes down John McGinn when Spain face Scotland, it’ll be a “reducer” to take out a key Villa player – right? Will Villa fans write in asking if Rodri has done it to prevent Emery’s Villa becoming a force next season? Course not because it’s an absurd proposition! Again, an international match that had absolutely nothing to do with Arsenal, somehow, again, becomes about Them. It’s incredible.
For years I thought this arrogance was the sole preserve of ManYoo fans (when they were good under Fergie) but Arsenal fans have come right to the fore on this. Only one other club’s fans beats them for such self-obsession and braggadocio (obvious which club that is!).
A club with zero PL titles in over 18 years, and less CL trophies than Villa are talking like they’re Tony Soprano bringing the fear. Pride before a Fall – and then they’ll wonder why the whole world laughs so hard at them when they fall flat. Of course not all Arsenal fans are like this…but so few club fans can manage to make the sacking of an elite coach at another club and international week, all about them.
Likeable players (Saka is an outstanding player who’s long overdue the recognition the likes of Foden and Grealish get 🤔), excellent manager, play great football but unfortunately, a sizeable proportion of their fanbase demonstrates an insane arrogance – which is based on literally nothing. I applaud Citeh fans here, because you don’t seem to witness this kind of ridiculous arrogance with their fans (and they have a basis for it! And yes I’ve met many Citeh fans)
Henry v Bergkamp
“Henry is literally the best player the premier league has ever seen”
Alex, South London is soooooo wrong.
You don’t have to go far though, Dennis Bergkamp is the best played the premier league has ever seen.
Notice I didn’t put “Literally” in there because it is up for debate.
So mailbox, who was the best? Dennis or Thierry?
For me Bergkamp 8 days a week. Henry was brilliant, no doubt, but Bergkamp, another level.
Fat Man (oh to be an Arsenal supporter, haven’t they had it tough??)
…Any sane person who watched Henry in his pomp would agree with Dion when he says that he was “the f*cking man”. He was even voted best PL player ever in a YouGov/Betfair poll last August, with about 15% of the vote.
Gotta love the ironic juxtaposition of those last two sentences though, in one breath telling us that “most people would consider him the best PL player of all time” (15% ain’t even close to “Most”) and the next chiding Aman for creating a narrative which is “not common opinion, so don’t say “we”.
MMMM….. Chef’s kiss, sir – absolute chef’s kiss!
Pablo, MUFC, Dublin
Biting on Spurs and Big Six claims
Obviously I shouldn’t even engage but I’m bored and there is so much wrong with Eric, CA’s diatribe against Spurs that the biggest challenge is knowing where to start.
I’m going to ignore the first 6 (!) paragraphs that basically just say we have a nice stadium and some Spurs fans were mean to him once and move onto his two main points which seem to be 1). Everything Spurs have achieved was luck and 2). They aren’t any bigger than a bunch of other teams so there isn’t a big 6.
He starts by saying Spurs were lucky to reach the Champions League final due to a ‘VAR decision they wouldn’t get today’ against City. If he means the Llorente goal, it’s possible the ball brushed a forearm hair but that goal would have stood at basically any point in football history. If he means the Aguero goal he’s just wrong, it was indisputably offside.
He then goes on to complain about us beating Marine on our way to a Mickey Mouse cup final, which is both factually wrong (oddly enough you don’t draw non league teams in the League cup) and ridiculous – as if no other team has ever reached a cup final after a generous draw. We then ‘didn’t deserve’ Champions League qualification last year despite getting the 4th most points (more than Liverpool had got the previous year to come third) and being excellent from when Conte arrived onwards for reasons that are not explained, and the final luck point is that we got Harry Kane through the academy and that won’t happen again for generations.
This is again oddly specific (no other team has ever benefited from a legend coming through their academy of course) but also in the last few generations Spurs have had legendary strikers like Greaves, Lineker and Klinsmann as well as very good ones like Chivers, Archibald, Sheringham and Berbatov so I think we are probably not entirely reliant on one player.
In conclusion ‘so much, too much’ broke right for Spurs to be competitive. This ignores any bad luck, like for instance having an extremely harsh penalty given against you at the very start of a Champions League final, or your major rivals for the title having absolutely no serious injuries for an entire season while you have loads (no player missed more than 3 games for Chelsea in 2016-17), but Eric has his view and facts must be selected to support it.
This all leads to Spurs not being a top 6 club, and why shouldn’t the sixth club be Leicester, or (hilariously) Everton, Villa or Forest. The answer is simple – Spurs have been much more consistently successful in the league than any of them. I’m interested how long past success contributes (Forest not having even been in the PL for most of the last 2 decades seems like a barrier to them being a top 6 team in my humble opinion) but basically Spurs have come top four 7 times in the last 13 years, top six 4 more times and never lower than 8th. The teams mentioned have come top 4 twice between them (including Leicester’s title triumph of course) and all bar Everton have been out of the PL in that time.
Spurs are the 6th biggest team in the PL. They are on financials, on playing success, on anything. They aren’t equal partners, but it’s like Eric asking why Andy Murray is part of the Big 4 of tennis, and not Wawrinka, del Potro or someone who was good in the 70s. We’re a mess right now and my personal theory is that the fetishisation of finishing top 4 over trophies that comes from Levy has infected the club, but we still remain the 6th member of the Big 6.
…Eric isn’t wrong, he also isn’t right; bit like Conte’s outburst really.
Spurs are a Big Six Club not because we said we are but because Sky did. Tottenham are a big club by many measures, sadly most are historical which is a source of frustration given just how close we have come in recent years to adding to that history. Not many, if any, Spurs fans have said Conte is wrong and that is that; because nothing is binary, and we’ve lived through 12 managers under ENIC appreciating the one consistent there.
We absolutely know we lucked out on our CL run (god knows what drawing Marine has to do with any other cup run, given we have nearly always lost in the SF or Final stages, when reached, by a fellow Big Six – Big Five – 🤔 team). That, weirdly, made it all the more fun because we knew City should have beaten us, and Ajax should have made the second leg a formality but, you know, that’s football, innit?
Many Spurs fans roll our eyes out the NFL Entertainment Complex stadium. It looks great, can sound great but I, for one, miss the old ground. Funnily enough, we were on the cusp of big things the final season there, which surely can’t be a coincidence that our form gradually, then rapidly deteriorated thereafter. Few teams win seventeen and draw two of their matches at home, as Spurs did that season. But ENIC aren’t in it for the glory, they are in it for the bunce – do just enough to make top four and keep the club under the noses of someone foolish enough to spend £5bn – the touted rate – remember, not for Tottenham Hotspur but for Entertainment Complex FC.
I really don’t understand the lucking out with Kane comment. No different to Liverpool and Gerrard (not where the similarities between those two ends). Win some lose some. Maybe Kane is as good as he is because of Spurs, who knows.
So, in short, we don’t add names like Big Six, the press do. Yes, the cheese room business was daft, and then never even happened. A climbing wall so the next manager can be shoved to his professional death. A team who have reached eight FA Cup SF and lost all since the last cup win. We have lost to Chelsea three times in the league cup at the SF or F stage in nine years. But not once have I encountered, either as a season ticket holder, nor as a fan for forty years, one Spurs fan exhibit anything but gallows humour at how daft we are as a club.
How frustrating it is that we have seen clubs like Leicester win the league and FA Cup in five years, whilst we tread water waiting for someone to buy the naming rights to the stadium (pre-Covid Levy was asking for a guaranteed £200m over ten years – this I know because I am ‘work friends’ with the agency tasked with creating the campaign to entice clients – for the record – the two closest business were Asian, and one wanted the stadium totally red, whilst Spurs end their relationship with AIA – breaking the contractual obligation).
It’s all farcical but we’ll still be here long after Levy has gone. After the next coach has been given the Spanish archer, and the stadium is called The Chic King Bowl.
…Reading Eric’s rather rambling email about whether or not Spurs are a Big Club(TM) – did he ever come to a conclusion, I’ll guess that he decided we aren’t – got me thinking about how a club’s performances during the time you’re watching/following football shape your perception of that club for years or decades after, especially if you got into football as a kid.
For instance, getting into football watching Italia 90 means that for me, Juve and Milan are the big two in Italy after their successes in the 90s and 00s. Inter on the other hand are still the 90s basket-case for me, even though they were the big club in Italy after Calciopili, and historically are part of the Big 3 in Italy.
Closer to home, I missed Everton’s 80s team and so for me they’re a mid-table side at best. Liverpool always felt a lot like Spurs: good players, sometimes won a League Cup, but nowhere near the level of Man Utd, who in the 90s were obviously the absolute alpha dog. Liverpool fans talking about being as big as Man Utd still feels like a cognitive dissonance to me, not to say they’re wrong, just that I don’t tend to think of Liverpool’s trophy cabinet when I think of them, more of Steve McManaman and Roy Evans.
All of which is to say that look what happens when you’re owned by someone like FSG rather than ENIC. Back in the late 2010’s it very much felt to me like Liverpool and Spurs were in a mini-league together; rich enough for regular European football, but not rich enough to win the league. Part of the frustration of the past few years for Spurs fans is that one team went on to win the League and Champions League, whereas the other gets grief for doing neither.
…Lot of Spurs abuse around the whole Conte is a world class manager who has been ‘Spursed’. Is Spurs the only club to be noun, adjective & verb…..
I think the key parameters on deciding what classifies as a ‘big club’ are:-
Recent form – 5-10 ish years
I would say ‘the big 6+’ falls into a couple of categories:-
Liverpool Man Utd Arsenal tick all the above. Old school big clubs with history, recent honours, strong international brand recognition , +60k stadiums (thank you FSG).
Chelsea deserve to be considered ‘big’ after 20 solid years of success but need a bigger stadium.
City join the ‘new batch’. 10 years of success, decent stadium (no matter how full it gets) you can hate them but you have to respect the achievements.
Spurs – the only real thing missing is actually winning something. Focus on the Carabao & FA cups each season to get the monkey off your back. They tick all the other boxes and if they can get Nagelsmann through the door surely he can defeat ‘Spursiness’.
Everton – I know I know I know. But they do tick a few boxes and as long as the first game at the new stadium isn’t in the championship they should be considered ‘almost’ / ‘clinging on’ / ‘best of the rest’ criteria.
West Ham ?
Hong Kong Ian (too many “”) LFC
Why Klopp was manager of last season
For those not understanding why Jürgen Klopp won manager of the year awards *last* season – I will make it really, really easy for you.
He *did* in fact have an exceptional League campaign. He came second by a point and about 15 hugely unlikely comeback mins while fighting longer on three other fronts than any team ever has. It was awesome. So give him a chance to fix it this summer, eh? It was only a year ago.
Oh and how people like to sneer at our brilliant but ultimately doomed Quadruple attempt. I’m usually so, so much politer than this in the mails I write, but not today for some reason.
Has your team come closer to the quadruple than that? No? Anyone?
Shut the f**k up until you have then.
Oh Flower of Scotland
WE’RE GOING TO WIN THE EUROS!!!
Mike, LFC, London